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Cricko

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Are HSBC culpable in the latest tax evasion schemes just uncovered by Panorama. If so why are they not being taken to court and more to the point why were they not dragged over the coals when this came to light in 2010. It is bad enough that only 1 person was prosecuted whilst others admittedly did a deal with HMRC and did pay some tax back. I can't see you or I getting away with such.

I have just heard that there are over 3200 staff looking into benefit fraud yet only 300 at HMRC looking into Tax evasion. Whilst I am behind those DWP staff 100% that find legitimate fraud surely the percentage they reclaim/stop is a **** in the ocean compared to what HMRC have gathered in with so few staff in comparison.

Also why was the EX HSBC chairman given a peerage and asked to work for the government AFTER this was all uncovered.

There are three separate questions there I guess so over to you guy's for your thoughts on all this.
 
I didn't watch it but there are two separate things: tax avoidance and tax evasion and I think we need to be clear which we are talking about.

Tax evasion is illegal and anyone who does this should be prosecuted. People (or their dogs, not that I'm accusing Rosie of anything) lying in their tax returns (eg hiding money overseas and not admitting it) should clearly be tried and if found guilty punished.

Tax avoidance though is legal and the government deliberately sets up systems for people to minimise their tax liability. An every day example of this is having an ISA or investing in a pension. Similar exemptions apply to companies - tax-breaks for investing in R&D, or a more controversial example for film investment. The answer here is for the government to close any loopholes that aren't appropriate not to punish individuals or companies who follow the letter of the law. I'd therefore prioritise more people (temporarily) at the treasury simplifying the tax code and closing exemptions.

I think also more attention needs to be paid to the deals Dave Hartnett, the former Head of HMRC approved eg with Vodafone, and the lack of governance around these. Private Eye's coverage of this has been good. Hartnett incidentally resurfaced at HSBC.

In the interest of balance, it's also worth remembering that companies are effectively double-taxed. They are taxed on their profits and then when they distribute that remaining profit via dividends, so even if they avoid corporation tax HMRC will get their hands on it.
 
Yeah my error, since edited Matt, I meant Evasion... But for one why are HSBC not being prosecuted for aiding and abetting such schemes.

The only fines these days against obvious corrupt banks seems to be doled out by the USA or Iceland...We just seem to accept it.
 
In the interest of balance, it's also worth remembering that companies are effectively double-taxed. They are taxed on their profits and then when they distribute that remaining profit via dividends, so even if they avoid corporation tax HMRC will get their hands on it.

Spot on with everything else, but this bit.

I was told that if you distribute dividends, you don't take 10% off for tax credit which is covered by the corporation tax. So the tax isn't deducted at source, like PAYE is, but it is treated that way. So if you have dividends of £9,000 to send out, you don't send out £9,000 less 10% tax credit (£8,100) but send out £10,000 less 10% tax credit (£9,000). The basic rate of tax on dividends is 10%, so this has already been "claimed" via tax credits.

Although, if the dividend figure forces the individual's income into the higher rate threshold, they will have to pay more tax on dividends.
 
I didn't watch it but there are two separate things: tax avoidance and tax evasion and I think we need to be clear which we are talking about.

Tax evasion is illegal and anyone who does this should be prosecuted. People (or their dogs, not that I'm accusing Rosie of anything) lying in their tax returns (eg hiding money overseas and not admitting it) should clearly be tried and if found guilty punished.

Tax avoidance though is legal and the government deliberately sets up systems for people to minimise their tax liability. An every day example of this is having an ISA or investing in a pension. Similar exemptions apply to companies - tax-breaks for investing in R&D, or a more controversial example for film investment. The answer here is for the government to close any loopholes that aren't appropriate not to punish individuals or companies who follow the letter of the law. I'd therefore prioritise more people (temporarily) at the treasury simplifying the tax code and closing exemptions.

I think also more attention needs to be paid to the deals Dave Hartnett, the former Head of HMRC approved eg with Vodafone, and the lack of governance around these. Private Eye's coverage of this has been good. Hartnett incidentally resurfaced at HSBC.

In the interest of balance, it's also worth remembering that companies are effectively double-taxed. They are taxed on their profits and then when they distribute that remaining profit via dividends, so even if they avoid corporation tax HMRC will get their hands on it.

I didn't watch Panorama last night but I believe you're right about this being tax avoidance rather than tax evasion. However, this neatly blows Boy George's point about lower tax rates meaning that the rich pay their taxes right out of the water.
 
A stat that has always stuck in my mind was for every £1 fraudulently claimed in benefits... £400 is fiddled in tax and that was 25yrs ago. So no doubt the gap has grown much wider since. Laws are to protect the rich from the poor not the other way round
 
We all seem to get really worked up by benefit cheats, but this is a drop in the ocean compared to the amount of money lost to the country by tax evasion.

Perhaps if IDS and his chums spent as much time and effort collecting tax as they do taking money from people with one too many bedrooms, the UK would be a much better and fairer place to live.
 
Not all bad news today, we got a letter through the post saying HSBC had got some terms of our car loan wrong and therefore we've been refunded £600. Bit of a touch.
 
Is this why Ron has recently spent money on Southend, cos he had to move it out of Switzerland sharpish?
 
Charles Geach, who was the founder of Midland Bank, must be turning in his grave. Saddens me to see once great and respected institutions fall into such disreputable businesses. I loved my days working for Midland Bank, both in the City and in Southend.

Where did the banks all go so wrong? :sad:
 
Looks like both Conservative and Labour are as bad as each other in this one.

http://http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/feb/11/hsbc-files-show-tories-raised-over-5m-from-hsbc-swiss-account-holders

Aside from the large font for Tories and small font for Labour [never biased this rag] the fact remains they are both guilty of either back handers, loans or both. Bent as hairpins the lot of them.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Plus Miliband has said that none of the donors on that list have donated while Miliband has been leader.

Cameron needs to clean house, and the coalition clearly hasn't done enough to act on tax evasion.

Why haven't we started criminal proceedings when numerous other countries have?
 
Two wrongs don't make a right. Plus Miliband has said that none of the donors on that list have donated while Miliband has been leader.

Cameron needs to clean house, and the coalition clearly hasn't done enough to act on tax evasion.

Why haven't we started criminal proceedings when numerous other countries have?

Agreed but Milliband is as deep in this as the rest of them. Remember what he was doing in Brown's government. And the simple answer to the criminal proceedings bit, election in May.
 
tumblr_mkzc7b9xYJ1r1lbm2o2_400.gif
 
I find this all so depressing. Using offshore bank accounts is not illegal. Failing to declare interest, dividends and earnings paid to said account that are subject to UK tax is illegal.

Some people will be failing to report their earnings and should be pursued. HMRC have a list of account holders and will be able to reconcile to filed tax returns and prosecute/recover tax accordingly.

Others will have an account but not be subject to UK tax, for example because they are non-resident. A lot of people in my industry work outside the UK and are not UK tax resident. They work in places with unreliable banks and use other arrangements (Swiss, UK or their home country where different). They pay tax in the country they work in but are not liable to UK tax because they are not tax resident in the UK and not performing work duties in the UK. This is not tax avoidance. If it is then there are approximately seven billion individuals who have structured their residence status to avoid UK tax.

It is pretty tiring to listen to politicians screaming about a subject they know little about when neither have done much to tackle the issue as it is easier to make unsubstantiated accusations about each other.

I'm sure this will descend into the usual point scoring, but wouldn't it be nice for once to listen to a discussion about what the problem is, what is the scale of the problem, what could be done to fix it, what resources would be required and what would the consequences be? I don't expect it to happen.
 
Yeah my error, since edited Matt, I meant Evasion... But for one why are HSBC not being prosecuted for aiding and abetting such schemes.

The only fines these days against obvious corrupt banks seems to be doled out by the USA or Iceland...We just seem to accept it.
I think you were fine as you were evasion / avoidance is going up a dark alleyway here as we are talking about money shipped out to other countries in secret and the deals that HMRC have been cutting to pay a token amount back means the tax was due in the first place. As you rightly point out the amount of staff tackling this is ridiculous as one big win would cover their collective wages for years. It is anti-business not to investigate this as companies that play fair are at a massive disadvantage verses any competitors who evade or avoid tax.

This is a massive issue when the rest of us have been hit with austerity measures to try to balance the economy while the government turns a blind eye to non collection of huge amounts of tax.
 
I find this all so depressing. Using offshore bank accounts is not illegal. Failing to declare interest, dividends and earnings paid to said account that are subject to UK tax is illegal.

Some people will be failing to report their earnings and should be pursued. HMRC have a list of account holders and will be able to reconcile to filed tax returns and prosecute/recover tax accordingly.

Others will have an account but not be subject to UK tax, for example because they are non-resident. A lot of people in my industry work outside the UK and are not UK tax resident. They work in places with unreliable banks and use other arrangements (Swiss, UK or their home country where different). They pay tax in the country they work in but are not liable to UK tax because they are not tax resident in the UK and not performing work duties in the UK. This is not tax avoidance. If it is then there are approximately seven billion individuals who have structured their residence status to avoid UK tax.

It is pretty tiring to listen to politicians screaming about a subject they know little about when neither have done much to tackle the issue as it is easier to make unsubstantiated accusations about each other.

I'm sure this will descend into the usual point scoring, but wouldn't it be nice for once to listen to a discussion about what the problem is, what is the scale of the problem, what could be done to fix it, what resources would be required and what would the consequences be? I don't expect it to happen.
This is so misleading.

The government are the ones most in the firing line - if there is nothing wrong with the way HSBC have set up these accounts then why haven't the government just stated that?
 
Looks like both Conservative and Labour are as bad as each other in this one.

http://http://www.theguardian.com/b...aised-over-5m-from-hsbc-swiss-account-holders

Aside from the large font for Tories and small font for Labour [never biased this rag] the fact remains they are both guilty of either back handers, loans or both. Bent as hairpins the lot of them.
Big differences are the number of those involved that have donated to the Conservative party during this term of office when the accounts were officially reported to HMRC, that after that being reported the Tories employed the head of HSBC and that at PMQ's Cameron was asked 4 times if he ever discussed tax with Green and he failed to answer each time.
 
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