Ht 1 Rd 8 - Horatio Nelson v Clement Attlee

[Napster]

canveyshrimper - Vice Admiral Horatio Nelson, 1st Viscount Nelson, 1st Duke of Bronté, KB

v

Manchester Shrimper - Clement Richard Attlee, 1st Earl Attlee, KG, OM, CH, PC, FRS

 

[Napster]

from canveyshrimper

Vice Admiral Horatio Nelson, 1st Viscount Nelson, 1st Duke of Bronté, KB (29 September 1758 – 21 October 1805) was a British flag officer famous for his service in the Royal Navy, particularly during the Napoleonic Wars. He won several victories, including the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805, during which he was killed.

Nelson was born into a moderately prosperous Norfolk family, and joined the navy through the influence of his uncle, Maurice Suckling. He rose rapidly through the ranks and served with leading naval commanders of the period before obtaining his own command in 1778. He developed a reputation in the service through his personal valour and firm grasp of tactics, but suffered periods of illness and unemployment after the end of the American War of Independence. The outbreak of the French Revolutionary Wars allowed Nelson to return to service, where he was particularly active in the Mediterranean. He fought in several minor engagements off Toulon, and was important in the capture of Corsica and subsequent diplomatic duties with the Italian states. In 1797 he distinguished himself while in command of HMS Captain at the Battle of Cape St Vincent.

Shortly after the battle, Nelson took part in the Battle of Santa Cruz de Tenerife, where he was badly wounded and forced to return to England to recuperate. The following year he won a decisive victory over the French at the Battle of the Nile and remained in the Mediterranean to support the Kingdom of Naples against a French invasion. In 1801 he was dispatched to the Baltic and won another victory, this time over the Danes at the Battle of Copenhagen. He subsequently commanded the blockade of the French and Spanish fleets at Toulon, and after their escape chased them to the West Indies and back but failed to bring them to battle. After a brief return to England, he took over the Cádiz blockade in 1805. On 21 October 1805 the Franco-Spanish fleet came out of port and Nelson's fleet engaged them at the Battle of Trafalgar. The battle was Britain's greatest naval victory, but Nelson was hit by a French sniper and mortally wounded. His body was brought back to England where he was accorded a state funeral.

Nelson was noted for his ability to inspire and bring out the best in his men: the 'Nelson touch'. His grasp of strategy and unconventional tactics produced a number of decisive victories. Some aspects of his behaviour were controversial during his lifetime and after: he began a notorious affair with Emma, Lady Hamilton while both were married, which lasted until his death. Also, his actions during the Neapolitan campaign resulted in allegations of excessive brutality. Nelson could at times be vain, insecure and overly anxious for recognition, but he was also zealous, patriotic and dutiful, as well as courageous. He was wounded several times in combat, losing most of one arm and the sight in one eye. His death at Trafalgar secured his position as one of England's most heroic figures. Numerous monuments, including Nelson's Column in Trafalgar Square, London, have been created in his memory and his legacy remains highly influential.

 

[Napster]

Clement Attlee served as Winston Churchill's deputy in the War Coalition before winning the 1945 election and leading the most important and visionary government in the history of this country. It's achievements include the establishment of the National Health Service and the state pension.


Attlee and the War


Clement Attlee was born in 1883, was elected to Parliament in 1922 (having previously been a lecturer at LSE and served as a captain during WW1) and became leader of the Labour party in 1935. At this time, the party opposed rearmament but this soon changed and by 1937, the Labour party, led by Attlee, opposed the Chamberlain government's policy of appeasement. When it became clear that a united front would be needed against Nazi Germany, the Labour party agreed they would be prepared to enter into a War Coalition providing it was not led by Chamberlain. As his position was clearly untenable, Chamberlain resigned and Churchill replaced him as Prime Minister.


In the next five years Churchill and Attlee formed a formidable partnership: Churchill managing the war effort abroad and focusing on diplomacy with the allies and Attlee taking care of things on the home front. Attlee was Churchill's deputy in the War Cabinet and the Defence Committee and answered for the Government in Parliament during Churchill's long absences abroad. Attlee also chaired the 'Lord President's Committee' which organised the civil side of the war, working to equip the military in the factories and utilising the female population of the country at work where before the war the vast majority of them would have been housewives.


Prime Minister


After the defeat of Germany, Attlee's Labour party defeated Churchill's Conservatives in the 1945 election on the platform of social reform. As the soldiers returned from abroad, Attlee's visionary government set about to care for its citizens 'from the cradle to the grave'. This reform included the setting up of the National Health Service which gave medical care free at the point of use. It also set up a social security system where national insurance contributions would provide a state pension, child benefit and help for those who were sick or between jobs. His government also embarked on a campaign of job creation which meant unemployment rarely rose above 500,000.


Although the 'Welfare State' gets a bit of stick nowadays because of it being open to abuse, the principle of it was to help those in need where before there was very little state aid for victims of circumstances, especially as so many of those that fought in the war were from a background of poverty and those many of those that died in the war left families who would have had to fend from themselves.


Clement Attlee was a consensus leader whose style was more like a chairman than a charismatic president but he was a man who was a visionary and he got things done. His admirers span the political spectrum and Thatcher from the opposite side of that spectrum said of him "Of Clement Attlee, however, I was an admirer. He was a serious man and a patriot. Quite contrary to the general tendency of politicians in the 1990s, he was all substance and no show".


VOTE ATTLEE!!

 

[steveo]

This is tough. Obviously the Labour thing goes against Clement so Horatio has my vote.

 

[Dave Smiths Love Child]

Attlee for me, if only for his vision for NHS

 

[Rayleigh Weir]

Attlee would probably be a shoe-in if this was the Great British unsung hero cup (assuming he met the incomprehensible acceptance criteria). But as this is the flag-waving, tub-thumping, bombastic, Great British hero cup, where men are men and true heroes are flawed but loved anyway, then I guess it has to be the one-armed, half-blind, frog-hating cuckold for me...

 

[leeblue]

Atlee should win on so many fronts, but....................without the amazing heroics of nelson and his inspiration to the fleet at pivotal battles the history of this country would be very different, I have a very keen interest in the napoleonic wars and without the navy we would have lost the war make no mistake, the two most famous fleet actions of the nile and of course trafalgar were vital victories, I work in the NHS and think its the most amazing thing since sliced bread but without Nelson we may well not have had the oppurtunity to have done many a thing

 

[Gt Yarmouth Shrimper]

And did you know that the original nelsons monument still stands in Gt Yarmouth today

 

[SARF]

Whilst his intentions where good and the initial creation worthwhile I cant look past Atlee being responsible for spawning a herd of workshy commie slackers sponging off the hardworking taxpayer.. ok you could argue that Atlee cant have known how the social make up of the country would change 50 years hence but thats just a bit tough.. On the plus side his creation did lead to some great films such as Carry on Doctor, Doctor in the house et al.. but its not enough to claw back the Nelson effect and his toatal crushing of Johnny Frog..

 

[Jedi Shrimper]

Tough tie. Admiral Nelson's victories were incredibly important in our history while Atlee's institution's have shaped the 20th century's culture whether they've worked out quite how he envisioned them or not, I got to vote for the dreamer.

 

[MK Shrimper]

Has to be Attlee, as flawed as it is, the NHS is still possibly the best health care system in the world. And he was a socialist :)

 

[steveo]

Has to be Attlee, as flawed as it is, the NHS is still possibly the best health care system in the world. And he was a socialist :)

Ive been watching the voting on these MK and you seem to be going for the biggest outsiders on every one. However, I fully expect you will be voting for my candidate when my heat comes along.

 

[canveyshrimper]

Well advocated by Manchester Shrimper and on another occasion my vote may well have gone to Attlee.

However at Trafalgar he had the added benefit that not only did he kick the arses of the French but also the Spanish. If we ever want to offend our European neighbours then IMO we should have a Bank Holiday to celebrate Trafalgar Day.

Vote Nelson.

 

[MK Shrimper]

Ive been watching the voting on these MK and you seem to be going for the biggest outsiders on every one. However, I fully expect you will be voting for my candidate when my heat comes along.

I don't think I have! Voted for Shakey!

Have you got Churchill v Thach?

 

[steveo]

I don't think I have! Voted for Shakey!

Have you got Churchill v Thach?

Yep. Cant see an MK vote for Maggie in a million years

 

[MK Shrimper]

Yep. Cant see an MK vote for Maggie in a million years

You've got my vote mate!

 

[OldBlueLady]

Nelson. Was my original suggestion when this idea was discussed last week, and he's an East Anglian boy.

 

[Swiss Tony]

Attlee would probably be a shoe-in if this was the Great British unsung hero cup (assuming he met the incomprehensible acceptance criteria). But as this is the flag-waving, tub-thumping, bombastic, Great British hero cup, where men are men and true heroes are flawed but loved anyway, then I guess it has to be the one-armed, half-blind, frog-hating cuckold for me...

Not so,the man had one arm and eye,very PC i'd say.

 

[Rayleigh Weir]

Not so,the man had one arm and eye,very PC i'd say.

Even though he lost them fighting?

 

[DTS]

Has to be Attlee, as flawed as it is, the NHS is still possibly the best health care system in the world. And he was a socialist :)

Purely on the basis that he is a left like you then I am going the other way.:clap: