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Interesting article in the Times on Monday about Bradford City's new owners.

The headline "German players get 50% of wages in bonuses - English want 90% up front"

It reckons the average League 1 wage is £100,000 a year.
It also says they heard from a striker they were trying to sign that he got a clean sheet bonus at his former club!

They have instructed Stuart McCall to ensure that young players are given first team opportunities alongside senior pros. Identifying , developing and ultimately selling promising young players is the basis of their business model.

Youth team coaches have been told to work on drills to improve skills so that a football factory to develop two footed players with good heading technique and fleet of foot is established.
 
Budgets!!! Same old, same old. If it was all about the budget then clubs may as well list how much they have and line up in the appropriate order, the richest to the poorest, and never bother kicking a ball.

The budget has a big part to play but then it's about how it is spent and by whom. The manager knows how much he has and then has to match it against the needs of the squad.

Players are not a loaf of bread from Tesco's. You can't just say I have the money so jump into my basket.

Firstly there is the filling of the dance card. Getting a time slot with prospective, available players and agents, while rebuffing the unwanted suitors continually throwing themselves at you.
Then the dance. 'You will love the town, the club, the players, me. Etc...' Much of this of course has little to do with the manager in many cases.
The last dance is normally where the question is floated, ' So, you want to come back to our place?' and the reply, ain't it always, ' How much you paying me Big Boy?'
If figures can be agreed it's a final medical tango to see if you are up to the mark or clapped out.

It's only now that the manager comes into his own. It's no good buying a Rolls Royce if you can't drive or getting a crunker of a Ford Escort if you can't tinker beneath the bonnet to get a few last miles out of it.

The best managers take the budget, manage it carefully, make wise transfers, build a team and get the best out of it. Some are better than others at this and the best make the budget work better than other people's bigger budget's.
I do not disagree that PB, to a point, has just about done that and we are higher in the league than we were before he arrived. I do though, watch the games, see the players out there, evaluate the performances and come away believing he has not got the best out of this team. Doing well is not the same as doing enough and that is my objection.

As a club we have achieved much. RM has kept us going. We have had a recent promotion. The academy continues to throw up talent, not least in the goalkeeping stakes. Last week we beat Col U. Hurrah!! But still I see poor starts to a season and invariably poor finishes to a season. We rarely win with conviction and the word emphatic is seldom appropriate. Our cup record is abysmal and the ultimate is we have a squad that does not look like it is the sum of its parts.
 
Todays quiz
Who said and when:

" We have a fine bunch of players who would run their legs of for you, if they knew you were behind them all the way. As things were last season players would avoid certain parts of the field where they can here themselves being insulted."
 
.... and a good, rich owner with the wherewithal to make things happen is even better.

Back to square one then. Orient had rich owners and they have certainly made things happen. Taken them to places none of their fans would have dreamt of just a few years ago. :winking:

Indeed. Guiseley, Fylde and Billericay approaching fast ! :winking:

However in your haste to defend the current regime, you overlooked a key word in my "a good, rich owner with the wherewithal to make things happen".
 
Interesting article in the Times on Monday about Bradford City's new owners.

The headline "German players get 50% of wages in bonuses - English want 90% up front"

It reckons the average League 1 wage is £100,000 a year.
It also says they heard from a striker they were trying to sign that he got a clean sheet bonus at his former club!

They have instructed Stuart McCall to ensure that young players are given first team opportunities alongside senior pros. Identifying , developing and ultimately selling promising young players is the basis of their business model.

Youth team coaches have been told to work on drills to improve skills so that a football factory to develop two footed players with good heading technique and fleet of foot is established.

Sounds like another example of owners dictating to managers and coaches on how to do their job. This is becoming an epidemic in the UK game unfortunately
 
I don’t think you have understood my post, maybe my fault if I was no very clear. I gave the analogy as the company I work Started from nothing 35 years ago (and not by a super rich man, and had regularly taken over much bigger companies because of its groundbreaking approach. A snall part of that relates to how we see success.

I dont one work in sales, and I don’t have my targets set for me- I do it. I don’t face all of the issues Phil does, but then he doesn’t face the issues I do , you mentioned some examples so I will counter with he doesn’t face to deal with the rules changing, but no one has told the ref, fixtures being brought forward last minute, 2 games the same day etc.( and I don’t gave hundreds who don’t know what I do ding my praises either �� it cuts both ways). But anyway that doesn’t matter , my point is purely about the fact that people often use the stat of our league position vs budget. I think that’s a good stat , however my point is simply because hat I expect my manager to achieve better than that gat. ( hence the analogy with my work). If we gave the 10th biggest budget and achieve 10th some will se that as fair enough I don’t.

refarding your statement at the end on this can not always be achieved- why not? It’s that approach, vision and thinking that makes sucesses- look at ostersunds for a football example

I did understand, without going over again you simply can't apply your system for your industry to manage a football club.

Question for you all.....Where would you expect us to finish in the Championship if we had been promoted. Whoever was the manger he would have the lowest budget in the division. Burton are in their 2nd year.

Like wise why compare us to someone in the Swedish league. Ostersunds were created by merging 3 clubs. Who would we like to do that with....West Ham and Col U anybody ?.
They are also financed by Libya so lets see how that works out.

No thanks not for me. Billericay will do fine for a few years and when scrap boy gets bored they will go the same way Canvey did when Jeff King left.

I really don't care what the Joneses have. Or Mr Guiseley or Miss Fyldes.....The main reason is they don't have what I have.
 
I did understand, without going over again you simply can't apply your system for your industry to manage a football club.

Question for you all.....Where would you expect us to finish in the Championship if we had been promoted. Whoever was the manger he would have the lowest budget in the division. Burton are in their 2nd year.

Like wise why compare us to someone in the Swedish league. Ostersunds were created by merging 3 clubs. Who would we like to do that with....West Ham and Col U anybody ?.
They are also financed by Libya so lets see how that works out.

No thanks not for me. Billericay will do fine for a few years and when scrap boy gets bored they will go the same way Canvey did when Jeff King left.

I really don't care what the Joneses have. Or Mr Guiseley or Miss Fyldes.....The main reason is they don't have what I have.
Sorry but your reply demonstrates that you clearly don’t understand my point or are being deliberately argumentative. The osterunds example was used as its topical but more importantly it’s their philosophy that I was referring to- they expect to achieve every year- and they are doing it, something you said was not possible, and they have done this by amongst other things. Why you mention the merging I have no idea

. Re your question on my expectations should we have been promoted. I have been very clear on this, it’s my entire point. I expect ( not hope) the manager to achieve higher than the budget. If we have the 20th highest budget then the absolute minimum requirement for me is 2 places higher ( assuming the chairman still backs the manager, etc etc)

you 100% can apply my point over any industry as it’s all about expectations. If not let’s just accept that we will never be promoted as we will never have a top 3 budget

what has has billericay got to do with it?
 
Sorry but your reply demonstrates that you clearly don’t understand my point or are being deliberately argumentative. The osterunds example was used as its topical but more importantly it’s their philosophthat I was referring to- they expect to achieve every year- and they are doing it, something you said was not possible, and they have done this by amongst other things. Why you mention the merging I have no idea

. Re your question on my expectations should we have been promoted. I have been very clear on this, it’s my entire point. I expect ( not hope) the manager to achieve higher than the budget. If we have the 20th highest budget then the absolute minimum requirement for me is 2 places higher ( assuming the chairman still backs the manager, etc etc)

you 100% can apply my point over any industry as it’s all about expectations. If not let’s just accept that we will never be promoted as we will never have a top 3 budget

what has has billericay got to do with it?

I understand your point perfectly well. Its just not valid for SUFC. Football is completely different to whatever you do. That's not being argumentative its just a fact. That's why the likes of Alan Sugar and Theo Paphitis realised they couldn't apply their vast business skills running a football club. Because you have to completely change your staff and business plan every time you are successful and what works one year can completely fail the next due to 1001 different reasons.

Ostersunds have been funded by nearly half-billion Krona from Libya. So who couldn't gain promotion after 3 attempts in the Swedish 2nd tier. Only a few years before that they were relegated. Certainly not the first team in Europe to buy success. In fact in a 16 team division they finished 10th 5th 2nd (promoted) 8th. So we are following a similar pattern but without the £50m funding from overseas.

As we have agreed for a club like ours its not just the league position but the development of players that count. If we had sold Lenny in the summer that would have meant at least another £800,000 on top of the Bentley/Payne deals which must be taken into account when judging a manger or the state of our club.

No one has said you have to have atop 3 budget to get promoted, so not sure why you have stated that. Bolton spent £6m to get out of L1 and that's why they have no money and are struggling in the Championship.

I mentioned Billericay because if you read the other posts on this thread, they have been mentioned. In fact they are the equivalent of Ostersunds. So what who cares, why do some fans think the answer is a sugar daddy who can provide short term success. Look at Blackburn they had it years ago and now they are back were they started after along miserable decline.
 
So far in this thread you have suggested the anti-PB squad were the same people that wanted Dave Smith out. Now you are saying that the anti-PB fans won't accept facts about budgets. This is why I take exception to your posts. I for one thought Dave Smith was great and never wanted him out and I don't question what others know about the budgets. In support of PB you group all the anti's together and slag them off in a generalised way. It's nonsense. I am anti because, in my opinion, we can do better and PB should do better, with what has been made available. If you just answered points brought up, instead of using every post to be condescending to those that disagree with you, I could acknowledge far more some of the good points you have made.

Last time before the current appointment I had called for a Southend manager to be sacked would have been Alvin Martin in 1999, that's 8(?) managers ago.


Sorry but your reply demonstrates that you clearly don’t understand my point or are being deliberately argumentative.

Or that love is blind.
 
I understand your point perfectly well. Its just not valid for SUFC. Football is completely different to whatever you do. That's not being argumentative its just a fact. That's why the likes of Alan Sugar and Theo Paphitis realised they couldn't apply their vast business skills running a football club. Because you have to completely change your staff and business plan every time you are successful and what works one year can completely fail the next due to 1001 different reasons.

Ostersunds have been funded by nearly half-billion Krona from Libya. So who couldn't gain promotion after 3 attempts in the Swedish 2nd tier. Only a few years before that they were relegated. Certainly not the first team in Europe to buy success. In fact in a 16 team division they finished 10th 5th 2nd (promoted) 8th. So we are following a similar pattern but without the £50m funding from overseas.

As we have agreed for a club like ours its not just the league position but the development of players that count. If we had sold Lenny in the summer that would have meant at least another £800,000 on top of the Bentley/Payne deals which must be taken into account when judging a manger or the state of our club.

No one has said you have to have atop 3 budget to get promoted, so not sure why you have stated that. Bolton spent £6m to get out of L1 and that's why they have no money and are struggling in the Championship.

I mentioned Billericay because if you read the other posts on this thread, they have been mentioned. In fact they are the equivalent of Ostersunds. So what who cares, why do some fans think the answer is a sugar daddy who can provide short term success. Look at Blackburn they had it years ago and now they are back were they started after along miserable decline.
Ok , if my point is wrong then by definition it must be right than if a club finishes in 10h place and has the 10 th highest budget then that stat can be used to show they have achieved expectations and the manager has done a good job.I don’t agree with that . If you also don’t agree then why are you disagreeing with all my posts above? If you do think it’s fair then we will agree to disagree
 
Last time before the current appointment I had called for a Southend manager to be sacked would have been Alvin Martin in 1999, that's 8(?) managers ago.




Or that love is blind.

This tread is actually quite good. There are plenty of other threads for those that don't like the manger. Than you.
 
Ok , if my point is wrong then by definition it must be right than if a club finishes in 10h place and has the 10 th highest budget then that stat can be used to show they have achieved expectations and the manager has done a good job.I don’t agree with that . If you also don’t agree then why are you disagreeing with all my posts above? If you do think it’s fair then we will agree to disagree
.

I never said your point about 10th with a budget of 10th is wrong. What I'm saying is with football you have to take in the bigger picture.

Did you have to sell your best players.?
How are the academy players progressing?
What was the football like overall?
How was your season for injuries?. Remember last season we were on a great run then Oxley and McL got injured over Christmas. Then we lost Ranger and Coker. Then Anton, Wordsworth, Iniss and White in about 7 days. Suspensions for Atkinson and Lenny.
How did the managers new signings perform.
Do the team look like the respect and respond to the manger and coaches.
etc, etc, etc.

Like I say in Football results and points of course do matter but is not just a bottom line industry.
 
Question for United We Stand:
is data available in your industry for the correlation betwen wages and results? The data I have seen for football is that wages correlate to 60-80% of league position. I totally take your point about it being desirable to set out to over-achieve the budget, but it has been shown to be very difficult and unusual in football, is it the same in your industry?
 
Todays quiz
Who said and when:

" We have a fine bunch of players who would run their legs of for you, if they knew you were behind them all the way. As things were last season players would avoid certain parts of the field where they can here themselves being insulted."

Whoever it was is illiterate!
 
Budgets!!! Same old, same old. If it was all about the budget then clubs may as well list how much they have and line up in the appropriate order, the richest to the poorest, and never bother kicking a ball.

The budget has a big part to play but then it's about how it is spent and by whom. The manager knows how much he has and then has to match it against the needs of the squad.

Players are not a loaf of bread from Tesco's. You can't just say I have the money so jump into my basket.

Firstly there is the filling of the dance card. Getting a time slot with prospective, available players and agents, while rebuffing the unwanted suitors continually throwing themselves at you.
Then the dance. 'You will love the town, the club, the players, me. Etc...' Much of this of course has little to do with the manager in many cases.
The last dance is normally where the question is floated, ' So, you want to come back to our place?' and the reply, ain't it always, ' How much you paying me Big Boy?'
If figures can be agreed it's a final medical tango to see if you are up to the mark or clapped out.

It's only now that the manager comes into his own. It's no good buying a Rolls Royce if you can't drive or getting a crunker of a Ford Escort if you can't tinker beneath the bonnet to get a few last miles out of it.

The best managers take the budget, manage it carefully, make wise transfers, build a team and get the best out of it. Some are better than others at this and the best make the budget work better than other people's bigger budget's.
I do not disagree that PB, to a point, has just about done that and we are higher in the league than we were before he arrived. I do though, watch the games, see the players out there, evaluate the performances and come away believing he has not got the best out of this team. Doing well is not the same as doing enough and that is my objection.

As a club we have achieved much. RM has kept us going. We have had a recent promotion. The academy continues to throw up talent, not least in the goalkeeping stakes. Last week we beat Col U. Hurrah!! But still I see poor starts to a season and invariably poor finishes to a season. We rarely win with conviction and the word emphatic is seldom appropriate. Our cup record is abysmal and the ultimate is we have a squad that does not look like it is the sum of its parts.

^
Really good post, that.

As are the posts from 'Rigsby' and 'United We Stand'. Good quality, reasoned debate from all sides.

From a personal perspective, I think mixing targets and expectations is slightly out.

I'd say it falls into three categories, this season :-

Target = Promotion, given the spend allowed. I get the impression RM gave PB a budget and said we could spend it on the Kightlys, Turners and Kiernans of this world and retain Lenny, but something has to give. This is where I think the Thommo and Will sales might have come in and the fact we aren't using loan players this year and have identified our own youngsters as potential fillers. In that regard, Dru and Kyps have done the club a huge favour by stepping up and performing. Elvis, too.

Expectations = This is the grey area. Given last season's points tally and the purchases this summer, I'd say it's play-offs in RM's eyes, hence why PB is under pressure to produce, this season. This could be at the expense of performances in cup competitions.

Reality = I'd say our reality, given injuries, strength of opposition clubs, size of our budget and so on, is around mid-table. Certainly comfortable survival at this level.


In conclusion, I think if we finish outside the play-offs, RM will see this as below expectations and PB's new contract could be a tough call.

The reality is that it is achievable, if things go our way with injuries and the like.

The target is promotion, of course, as it was for all 24 clubs at the start of the season. The key will be that if we don't achieve RM's expectations as a minimum, what happens next and would the chair be pulled before the end of the season, if that expectation starts to wane.

Interesting times and certainly could be a bumpy and exciting ride!
 
'world war 3 has just been declared'. Surely some of that should be in upper case?????
 
^
Really good post, that.

As are the posts from 'Rigsby' and 'United We Stand'. Good quality, reasoned debate from all sides.

From a personal perspective, I think mixing targets and expectations is slightly out.

I'd say it falls into three categories, this season :-

Target = Promotion, given the spend allowed. I get the impression RM gave PB a budget and said we could spend it on the Kightlys, Turners and Kiernans of this world and retain Lenny, but something has to give. This is where I think the Thommo and Will sales might have come in and the fact we aren't using loan players this year and have identified our own youngsters as potential fillers. In that regard, Dru and Kyps have done the club a huge favour by stepping up and performing. Elvis, too.

Expectations = This is the grey area. Given last season's points tally and the purchases this summer, I'd say it's play-offs in RM's eyes, hence why PB is under pressure to produce, this season. This could be at the expense of performances in cup competitions.

Reality = I'd say our reality, given injuries, strength of opposition clubs, size of our budget and so on, is around mid-table. Certainly comfortable survival at this level.


In conclusion, I think if we finish outside the play-offs, RM will see this as below expectations and PB's new contract could be a tough call.

The reality is that it is achievable, if things go our way with injuries and the like.

The target is promotion, of course, as it was for all 24 clubs at the start of the season. The key will be that if we don't achieve RM's expectations as a minimum, what happens next and would the chair be pulled before the end of the season, if that expectation starts to wane.

Interesting times and certainly could be a bumpy and exciting ride!

I can't disagree with your review of the situation and I, for one, have no knowledge of the behind the scenes politics. What RM wants or may do is only something time can show.
Expectations seem to be a bit black or white. Some say we should be in the play off's at least and others feel we are doing well to be where we are in the table. I can only say that we are not playing consistently well. It's the performances that irk me and that is because I believe the players we have can do better. Win, lose or draw, is of no consequence as long as the best of effort was made.
I do not see PB getting the best out of the team. The side constantly looks restrained.
 
Fair points.

The ideal scenario would be for PB to effectively be given a month off and see how the team performs under someone else. Otherwise, it's a tough call as to whether the side would do better than it is.

Leicester seem to be a good example of how unsure things can be. Ranieri wins the title. Side starts under-performing. Ranieri is sacked. Shakespeare takes over. Side does better. Then under-performs again. Shakespeare gets sacked.

I guess the key is getting the team to perform to their maximum potential on a consistent basis and I agree, tactics, style of play, set-up, instructions are all part of that. Plus injuries and suspensions can play a part.

Webby and Tilly had a formula that worked and generally stuck to it.

My main criticism of PB is changing things up and trying to be too clever, at times, rather than getting us to just play our natural game. When we do, we can beat anybody in this division.
 
LUCK, and loads of it, is what is needed for a less well funded side to do well.
The Fry team, the Tilson team (& Leicester) all had it a plenty.
At present we ain't got our fair share of it or "rub of the green" with rebounds, deflections, ref decisions or injuries.

Occasionally a team will come along and sheer hard work, combination of collective lesser talents, will power and determination through the whole club and Buck the status quo, that was Webb's team.(& Leicester)

however as Arnold Palmer stated " the more I practice the luckier I get" and same works, in part, in footie when players take the shots, make the runs etc; we need to be luckier and more Webbier.
 
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