I think we should all take a moment....

[Tangled up in Blue]

Todays quiz
Who said and when:

" We have a fine bunch of players who would run their legs of for you, if they knew you were behind them all the way. As things were last season players would avoid certain parts of the field where they can here themselves being insulted."

Whoever it was they couldn't spell.:winking: Not Alan Williams,by any chance?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I did understand, without going over again you simply can't apply your system for your industry to manage a football club.

Question for you all.....Where would you expect us to finish in the Championship if we had been promoted. Whoever was the manger he would have the lowest budget in the division. Burton are in their 2nd year.

Like wise why compare us to someone in the Swedish league. Ostersunds were created by merging 3 clubs. Who would we like to do that with....West Ham and Col U anybody ?.
They are also financed by Libya so lets see how that works out.

No thanks not for me. Billericay will do fine for a few years and when scrap boy gets bored they will go the same way Canvey did when Jeff King left.

I really don't care what the Joneses have. Or Mr Guiseley or Miss Fyldes.....The main reason is they don't have what I have.

Millwall seem to be doing OK last time I looked.

 

[united we stand]

.

I never said your point about 10th with a budget of 10th is wrong. What I'm saying is with football you have to take in the bigger picture.

Did you have to sell your best players.?
How are the academy players progressing?
What was the football like overall?
How was your season for injuries?. Remember last season we were on a great run then Oxley and McL got injured over Christmas. Then we lost Ranger and Coker. Then Anton, Wordsworth, Iniss and White in about 7 days. Suspensions for Atkinson and Lenny.
How did the managers new signings perform.
Do the team look like the respect and respond to the manger and coaches.
etc, etc, etc.

Like I say in Football results and points of course do matter but is not just a bottom line industry.

Ok, thanks for that, so instead of focusing on my point you choose to quote me and then add a whole lot of stuff that had nothing to do with my point which was very clearly defined and clarified and in all of your replies one sentence addresses my actual point- cheers

ps I couldn’t be bothered before but osterunds we’re doing very well before the Libya money came in ( assuming it did). As I said before I used this example as they set very high goals which people laughed at- but they achieved them, year after year after year.

 

[AndyT]

Millwall seem to be doing OK last time I looked.

19th. 1 win in 6 matches.

That said 'chopper' has done well there, in truth.

Ironically, the side with the most recent championship history from the three promoted, are doing the worst!

 

[united we stand]

Question for United We Stand:
is data available in your industry for the correlation betwen wages and results? The data I have seen for football is that wages correlate to 60-80% of league position. I totally take your point about it being desirable to set out to over-achieve the budget, but it has been shown to be very difficult and unusual in football, is it the same in your industry?

No there here isn’t any data, however we are NOT the highest payers ( I took a pay cut when I came here). The company I work for is Extremly successfull, the share price has gone from $5.20 to $70 in 12 years. We are successful because of our leadership and the culture . We work shorter hours than our peers but we focus on stuff that matters not politics and empire building. But the main point is on culture and expectations, let staff have lots of input into targets, and set difficult targets, but give them the tools and support and they will achieve it, give them a lesser target with the same support and they will achieve the lower target , no more. Money is not the driving factor, creating a great culture is. People want to achieve, they want to improve, their they want to be part of the team- if they don’t , then don’t employ them. I can see a lot of that translating to football

 

[AndyT]

Fair comments 'united'.

Chris Wilder seems to be a good example of that culture working.

The key is getting the right people on board, as well. I think PB knows that, hence why he jettisons people he feels don't buy into the philosophy.

This is also why a manager could be a world beater at one club and a failure at the next.

 

[blues exile]

Ok, thanks for that, so instead of focusing on my point you choose to quote me and then add a whole lot of stuff that had nothing to do with my point which was very clearly defined and clarified and in all of your replies one sentence addresses my actual point- cheers

ps I couldn’t be bothered before but osterunds we’re doing very well before the Libya money came in ( assuming it did). As I said before I used this example as they set very high goals which people laughed at- but they achieved them, year after year after year.

The promised Libyan money never materialised after that country descended into anarchy so it is a red herring which has nothing to do with the progress the club has made.They were already in the second tier anyway when the investment was promised. As Potter said, what you never had you never miss.

 

[rigsby]

Millwall seem to be doing OK last time I looked.

So are Sheffield United but this is a forum about Southend United. Millwall are a bigger club with better finances than us, hence the bid for Lenny, so I would expect them to have more of a chance than us.

 

[rigsby]

:winking:

Ok , if my point is wrong then by definition it must be right than if a club finishes in 10h place and has the 10 th highest budget then that stat can be used to show they have achieved expectations and the manager has done a good job.I don’t agree with that . If you also don’t agree then why are you disagreeing with all my posts above? If you do think it’s fair then we will agree to disagree

Ok, thanks for that, so instead of focusing on my point you choose to quote me and then add a whole lot of stuff that had nothing to do with my point which was very clearly defined and clarified and in all of your replies one sentence addresses my actual point- cheers

ps I couldn’t be bothered before but osterunds we’re doing very well before the Libya money came in ( assuming it did). As I said before I used this example as they set very high goals which people laughed at- but they achieved them, year after year after year.

No sorry mate, didn't understand at all. You have to remember that some of us on here aren't high flyers in exciting new companies who are inspired by motivational speakers specially flown in from the US.

In fact if it is clear and defined then I'm a Swedish man. :winking:

 

[Ricky Otto]

Ok, thanks for that, so instead of focusing on my point you choose to quote me and then add a whole lot of stuff that had nothing to do with my point which was very clearly defined and clarified and in all of your replies one sentence addresses my actual point- cheers

ps I couldn’t be bothered before but osterunds we’re doing very well before the Libya money came in ( assuming it did). As I said before I used this example as they set very high goals which people laughed at- but they achieved them, year after year after year.

I’m not sure your comparison works either,although not for the same reasons that Rigsby gives. You have given your “target”as an example. I am sure PB’s target is not related to the budget, his target is set by what his boss (RM) wants for his money, not by what the rest of the league is spending. I can see that you are saying that you are basing this “target” on what some fans think is acceptable, i.e if we have the 10[SUP]th[/SUP]highest budget then 10th is acceptable. I agree with your point that a good manager has to exceed the position of their budget (or match it if you have the largest). The part where I think your comparison doesn’t work is that, I assume, all your colleagues could conceivably exceed their targets? Or allcompanies in your sector could exceed their targets? It may be unlikely but itis possible. It is not the same for football mangers it is impossible for themall to exceed their target or all to finish higher than their budget.

 

[Bearded Shrimper]

Good points Mr Otto.
Obviously the target at the start of the season is promotion, but there have to be realistic targets too. It might be that 6th (for example) is the realistic target and thus the actual benchmark for the line between success and failure. If so then you have to take all the other things into account such as injuries, other teams, transfers etc. etc.
I am inclined to believe that things that work elsewhere don't necessarily translate to football but I don't know for sure. Otherwise many of the rich and successful people who go in to football would be more successful than they are

 

[davewebbsbrain]

I am sure Ron didn't give PB the funds to go and buy 'quality' older professionals and expect to finish mid table. There's only so many times Ron will back a manager with big signings and not see a decent return

 

[united we stand]

. I can see that you are saying that you are basing this “target” on what some fans think is acceptable, i.e if we have the 10[SUP]th[/SUP]highest budget then 10th is acceptable. I agree with your point that a good manager has to exceed the position of their budget (or match it if you have the largest). .

People seem to be looking into what I have said far too much. Rigsby decided he didn’t understand it or it was as somehow anti Phil Brown / SUFC and went off on tangents, and choose to be sarcastic - very grown up . I was trying to make one point which you have totally understood and agreed with. I used my work as an example outside of football of an organisation that has the same mentality as you and I have in regard to SUFC, where we expect to over achieve gs budget.
.

 

[united we stand]

:winking:



No sorry mate, didn't understand at all. You have to remember that some of us on here aren't high flyers in exciting new companies who are inspired by motivational speakers specially flown in from the US.

In fact if it is clear and defined then I'm a Swedish man. :winking:

really grown up reply making a lot of incorrect assumptions. I’m confused, on an earlier post I politely said I thought you had misunderstood me and you shot be down, now you are saying you did misunderstand and are being sarcastic

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

So are Sheffield United but this is a forum about Southend United. Millwall are a bigger club with better finances than us, hence the bid for Lenny, so I would expect them to have more of a chance than us.

Yes,agreed.My answer was a flippant one -although Millwall did take the last play off place at our expense!I imagine we would have come straight down-as we did last time.Though, as you were saying about the Pompey game, we should all just learn to "enjoy the ride." As our history proves, we certainly don't have a divine right to football any higher than L1.Though, I've enjoyed our seven seasons in the second tier.Indeed under Dave Webb et al ,back in the 90's, we seemed to have found our place in the sun for a while.

It seems to me, you believe that we wouldn't be capable of regular Championship football until FF is built, (if ever) and generates more income.Burton's recent success in staying up for their second season now, shows that it is possible to punch above your weight,for a limited time at least.

 

[AndyT]

Good points Mr Otto.
Obviously the target at the start of the season is promotion, but there have to be realistic targets too. It might be that 6th (for example) is the realistic target and thus the actual benchmark for the line between success and failure. If so then you have to take all the other things into account such as injuries, other teams, transfers etc. etc.
I am inclined to believe that things that work elsewhere don't necessarily translate to football but I don't know for sure. Otherwise many of the rich and successful people who go in to football would be more successful than they are

Yep, that's exactly it.

Football isn't an exact science. There are all kinds of extenuating circumstances that affect your results and ultimately whether you succeed, fail or reach your expectations.

The key is getting your expectations right in the first place.

Of the 11 sides above us, I would say possibly two are exceeding their expectations at the moment, so in the greater scheme of things, we are in roughly where we expect to be, with the hope that a good run of form could put us closer to our target of promotion.

It's all about aiming high, but accepting that on probability, we might finish slightly lower.

As long as we give it a go, then that's good enough for me.

 

[LBBlue]

Todays quiz
Who said and when:

" We have a fine bunch of players who would run their legs of for you, if they knew you were behind them all the way. As things were last season players would avoid certain parts of the field where they can here themselves being insulted."

The answer is Arthur Rowley just before the 1974/75 season.

 

[Uncle Leo]

I am sure Ron didn't give PB the funds to go and buy 'quality' older professionals and expect to finish mid table. There's only so many times Ron will back a manager with big signings and not see a decent return

Season's not over yet.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

Season's not over yet.

Really?

It was a generalisation on expectation against outlay.

I think with the players Brown got in last season like Cox and Ferdy, Ron was expecting a play off place at the very minimum but didn't get it so this season the expectation is possibly even higher due to the failure of not reaching a play off spot. If that expectation isn't met, I can't see Browns contract being renewed

 

[Uncle Leo]

Really?

It was a generalisation on expectation against outlay.

I think with the players Brown got in last season like Cox and Ferdy, Ron was expecting a play off place at the very minimum but didn't get it so this season the expectation is possibly even higher due to the failure of not reaching a play off spot. If that expectation isn't met, I can't see Browns contract being renewed

There was a strong implication in there that a mid-table finish is what you're expecting.

If we do only finish (say) 12th, then Brown's position is certainly in doubt.

If we make the playoffs (and don't go up), or perhaps get very close like last year, then a season of effectively standing still would be disappointing, but I think enough to see Brown given a new deal.