Question Is there an argument for youth players to stay at Southend

[DTS]

Just thinking to myself that its great having Daniel Bentley in goal. A local lad and been with the club a few years. I imagine we will get a season or two service from him and then he will be sold on for a profit just in time for Ted Smith to step in.

I don't think any SUFC fans begrudge a player moving on to better things if they do it the right way (Gower) and not the wrong way (Bailey or Hall).

It did get me thinking though that the players that have stayed and given the club a bit of service before departing (Ferdinand, Moussa and to a lesser degree O'Keefe) have done better than the players that we sold on before they ever got near our first team.

I can think of Lyle DV, Iorfa, James Dunn ( I think that was his name went to Arsenal), Medi, Femi Orunga etc that seem nowhere near the first team or have drifted into obscurity. Only Poleon and Ngoo that I know of have really achieve anything of note so far and they are lucky to have 20 games to their names.

I think it bodes well for us that were starting to produce talent and the young lads can see there is a clear path to league football which history shows us you might not get by going to the big boys too early.

 

[Bromley Blue]

I definitely think O'Keefe would have played a lot more football if he'd stayed with us that summer.

That said Dougie Freedman obviously rated him from his time with us and Stuart would have hoped to have broken into the Palace team in the Championship by now. Unfortunately for him (in a weird sort of way) they got promoted to the Premiership and now he's very much a squad player, coming on for the odd sub appearance.

I think if he'd stayed with us in Sturrock's first season he would have played maybe 25 full games and who knows how he would have progressed from there, having had that extra match experience. But he's still getting game time in the Premiership and obviously being paid a lot more to learn his trade with better players so he might be happy enough as he is.

I think if Palace stay up then he might be looking for a new club when his contract is up though but he'll probably get offers from higher up than us anyway.

I fully agree that the young lads are better off sticking around though as they will only end up going out on loan to Football League clubs to get experience anyway.

 

[dannypav]

Just thinking to myself that its great having Daniel Bentley in goal. A local lad and been with the club a few years. I imagine we will get a season or two service from him and then he will be sold on for a profit just in time for Ted Smith to step in.

I don't think any SUFC fans begrudge a player moving on to better things if they do it the right way (Gower) and not the wrong way (Bailey or Hall).

It did get me thinking though that the players that have stayed and given the club a bit of service before departing (Ferdinand, Moussa and to a lesser degree O'Keefe) have done better than the players that we sold on before they ever got near our first team.

I can think of Lyle DV, Iorfa, James Dunn ( I think that was his name went to Arsenal), Medi, Femi Orunga etc that seem nowhere near the first team or have drifted into obscurity. Only Poleon and Ngoo that I know of have really achieve anything of note so far and they are lucky to have 20 games to their names.

I think it bodes well for us that were starting to produce talent and the young lads can see there is a clear path to league football which history shows us you might not get by going to the big boys too early.

It's a difficult one.
It is probably better all round ( for us as supporters , for the player and for future employers higher up the Leagues ) that a good youth prospect gets a couple of years experience in or around our first team.

On the other hand , if Arsenal ( as in the case of Dunn ) come calling , it's really difficult to turn it down.
It might be the only chance the lad gets of making it at the top level , although we all know ( and so does the player deep down ) that the competition will be huge and therefore the chances very limited.

I think the positives for that are that if a youngster has at least been taken on by a prem club , then they should at least attract some interest lower down if and when they are released.

 

[EastStandBlue]

I think we'll be extremely fortunate (or unfortunate, depending which way you look at it) to still have Bentley on our books in September.

It's also a little unfair to conclude that Della-Verde hasn't achieved anything either. He was only 16 when he signed for Fulham and went straight into their U18 squad, which is no mean feat at a Premier League club. He's now a regular fixture in their U21 side and highly rated.

 

[chapperzUK]

Of course we would have wanted them to stay on, but will always be hard to say no to bigger clubs as they can invest more time and money into a youth player than we can. Also we get a fee for them with add-ons if they do well.

Lyle Della Verde is still only 18 so has plenty of time to improve, but would he have improved by staying here for a couple of seasons? Who knows. He got a serious injury last season which would have hampered his progress and the same thing happened to Femi Orenuga at Everton.

One thing that is certain, and Bentley proves this, is that being given confidence from the management and being eased into the first team over a long period (1-2 seasons) will give the player more benefit than sitting on the bench or stands.

 

[Pubey]

Ngoo is available for loan...

I think a lot of it comes down to attitude really. Someone like Moussa is hard working, unlikely to rock the boat, but also very ambitious (in the latest AAS he talks about wanting to get back into the Championship). He knew the right way to do that, by taking his time and learning from his teammates, and a step back can sometimes be a platform to go forward. Hall and Bailey are more immature, and probably ill-advised as well.

It's important that players get games at an appropriate level as that's where they develop. How many competitive games of football has Lyle Della Verde played, aged 19 (tomorrow)? Zero? Michael Ngoo has 24 and he's 21, Ryan Leonard has 76 appearances and is 21. Moussa 228 and is 24.

 

[amsemp]

Bentley is a good role model for the younger players coming through and he's set a great example as to what can be achieved by a youth team player at Southend United. I would like to think that many decent young players on our books would look at him as proof that sailing up the leagues at the age of 15/16 isn't always the best move.

They might get better facilities at a bigger club but can you honestly tell me that they get more personal and professional development and better nurturing compared to a smaller club such as ourselves? The truth of the matter is that these young players leave their smaller clubs touted as 'wonderkids' and 'hot prospects' but then find themselves joining a pool of hundreds of players the same sort of age and ability at a bigger club. They go from being very highly thought of at their old club to being merely a small fish in a ginormous pond. The odds are suddenly stacked massively against them succeeding.

Add to the mix the fact that the EPPP allows Category A acadamies to sign young players for peanuts, it just means that more Premiership clubs will be taking a chance on any youngster showing a glimmer of promise in the hope that they turn out to be first team quality. I can imagine Ricky Duncan really putting in the effort in an attempt to get every youth team player into the first team compared to a Premiership club where if 1 in 50 youngsters makes it to the first team it's an achievement.

Pains me to see the likes of Orenuga plying their trade at AFC United (who?) in Sweden's third division when they were once tipped to be great players. I know Orenuga's been unlucky with injury, but I can't help but feel he'd be doing slightly better now had he stayed with us. I know it's hard for any youngster to turn down a big money contract, especially with a greedy agent, but wish these lads would think long term!

 

[rlb999]

Take Orenuga. You're 15 and you're on Southend's books. Then Everton come calling with all their history, doubtless a lot more money, all their impressive training facilities and household names as coaches. They do a job on you, and they do a job on your parents. The kid probably wants to go and it would take a really strong parent to 1) not fall for Everton's wooing, and b) tell the kid he's not going to Everton.

 

[chapperzUK]

Bentley is a good role model for the younger players coming through and he's set a great example as to what can be achieved by a youth team player at Southend United. I would like to think that many decent young players on our books would look at him as proof that sailing up the leagues at the age of 15/16 isn't always the best move.

They might get better facilities at a bigger club but can you honestly tell me that they get more personal and professional development and better nurturing compared to a smaller club such as ourselves? The truth of the matter is that these young players leave their smaller clubs touted as 'wonderkids' and 'hot prospects' but then find themselves joining a pool of hundreds of players the same sort of age and ability at a bigger club. They go from being very highly thought of at their old club to being merely a small fish in a ginormous pond. The odds are suddenly stacked massively against them succeeding.

Add to the mix the fact that the EPPP allows Category A acadamies to sign young players for peanuts, it just means that more Premiership clubs will be taking a chance on any youngster showing a glimmer of promise in the hope that they turn out to be first team quality. I can imagine Ricky Duncan really putting in the effort in an attempt to get every youth team player into the first team compared to a Premiership club where if 1 in 50 youngsters makes it to the first team it's an achievement.

Pains me to see the likes of Orenuga plying their trade at AFC United (who?) in Sweden's third division when they were once tipped to be great players. I know Orenuga's been unlucky with injury, but I can't help but feel he'd be doing slightly better now had he stayed with us. I know it's hard for any youngster to turn down a big money contract, especially with a greedy agent, but wish these lads would think long term!

Sorry, can't agree with that. I doubt there are "hundreds" of 15/16 year olds at any club in the country. While you say that "if 1 in 50 youngsters makes it to the first team it's an achievement", would you say the same isn't applicable here? Over the last several years we have had loads of players come up to the under 18s squad and then disappeared.

EPPP is meant to allow clubs to give more time and make sure that clubs take their youth systems seriously. This myth that players can go for "peanuts" really does depend on the situation. For example, with Ted Smith we could get around £100k up front for him if he didn't sign a pro contract and then we would get more for him with appearances. Before EPPP we could have got nothing (like with Poleon) or even gone to a tribunal.

Also, I doubt these kids are on much either so the "big money contract" is just a guess and a "greedy agent" is a generalisation.

Would they have been better staying here? Like I said earlier, who knows but we have had several players coming through our youth system who have been tipped for big things - remember Craig Calver after scoring loads for the under 18s and Tilson said he could play in the Premiership and now he can barely get a game at Chelmsford.

 

[Rattus Norvegicus]

Take Orenuga. You're 15 and you're on Southend's books. Then Everton come calling with all their history, doubtless a lot more money, all their impressive training facilities and household names as coaches. They do a job on you, and they do a job on your parents. The kid probably wants to go and it would take a really strong parent to 1) not fall for Everton's wooing, and b) tell the kid he's not going to Everton.

It takes an average parent to think of their child first and the money second, doesn't it?

 

[Rattus Norvegicus]

I think the answer is a big fat "yes" - many would be better staying here for a wide variety of reasons but the biggest of them all is that playing competitive professional football cannot be simulated in other games.

Taking a big step up into playing in Division 4 is, for me, worth a lot, lot more than being in a "development" game even at the top end of Division 1.

 

[amsemp]

Sorry, can't agree with that. I doubt there are "hundreds" of 15/16 year olds at any club in the country. While you say that "if 1 in 50 youngsters makes it to the first team it's an achievement", would you say the same isn't applicable here? Over the last several years we have had loads of players come up to the under 18s squad and then disappeared.

EPPP is meant to allow clubs to give more time and make sure that clubs take their youth systems seriously. This myth that players can go for "peanuts" really does depend on the situation. For example, with Ted Smith we could get around £100k up front for him if he didn't sign a pro contract and then we would get more for him with appearances. Before EPPP we could have got nothing (like with Poleon) or even gone to a tribunal.

Also, I doubt these kids are on much either so the "big money contract" is just a guess and a "greedy agent" is a generalisation.

Would they have been better staying here? Like I said earlier, who knows but we have had several players coming through our youth system who have been tipped for big things - remember Craig Calver after scoring loads for the under 18s and Tilson said he could play in the Premiership and now he can barely get a game at Chelmsford.

The point I'm trying to make is that a youngster is more likely to get a more one to one mentoring at Southend than at Everton for example. Purely down to volume, it's not feasible for Everton to give special attention to anyone when they have so many youngsters on the books.

You can't convince me that EPPP is anything other than a scheme to make the rich richer I'm afraid. We could have lost Ted Smith for £75,000. Ask yourself if you would have been happy with £75,000 for Dan Bentley if he was sold aged 15, knowing what you know now?

 

[amsemp]

In fact Bentley was youth for 2 years meaning he could have departed for about £25,000 if we were lucky. John Bostock fee went to tribunal and was set at £700,000 with add on's taking it up to a potential £1.25m.

 

[chapperzUK]

The point I'm trying to make is that a youngster is more likely to get a more one to one mentoring at Southend than at Everton for example. Purely down to volume, it's not feasible for Everton to give special attention to anyone when they have so many youngsters on the books.

You can't convince me that EPPP is anything other than a scheme to make the rich richer I'm afraid. We could have lost Ted Smith for £75,000. Ask yourself if you would have been happy with £75,000 for Dan Bentley if he was sold aged 15, knowing what you know now?

What makes you think they wouldn't have more youth coaches then?

Not saying that EPPP is good or bad, but £75k for Ted Smith who hasn't played a single game isn't bad going when we get around £100k for players who have at least proven ability at this level (Hall, Mohsni, Ferdinand) especially when the old system didn't guarantee money too.

In that situation I wouldn't be happy with him leaving at all, but is he currently worth more than £75k? He has had a great 6 months and has potential, but he is in the 4th division and he has still made some howlers.

First team football is also a lot more physically demanding than youth football and some players might not be ready for that challenge yet, although some people develop physically earlier than other.

 

[amsemp]

What makes you think they wouldn't have more youth coaches then?

Not saying that EPPP is good or bad, but £75k for Ted Smith who hasn't played a single game isn't bad going when we get around £100k for players who have at least proven ability at this level (Hall, Mohsni, Ferdinand) especially when the old system didn't guarantee money too.

In that situation I wouldn't be happy with him leaving at all, but is he currently worth more than £75k? He has had a great 6 months and has potential, but he is in the 4th division and he has still made some howlers.

First team football is also a lot more physically demanding than youth football and some players might not be ready for that challenge yet, although some people develop physically earlier than other.

Not making a statement of fact about that which is why I said 'more likely' but just speaking from memory of certain players who've moved to bigger clubs. For example, Liverpool were interested in the two Stockport lads a few seasons back, Greg Tansey and Ryan Crowther. Both went on trial and Crowther signed, whereas Tansey decided to remain with Stockport. 4 years later, Tansey was playing regularly in the SPL after over 100 appearances for Stockport and Crowther had just finished a spell in the Northern Premier Division. Not saying Crowther would have gone the same way as Tansey had he have stayed, but you hear of this all the time.

Ngoo was sold at the age of 16 before EPPP for £250,000. We would have got probably 1/8 of that if it was now. The system only caters for the elite and makes it more affordable for Premiership teams to sign promising young players for a bargain price.

 

[chapperzUK]

Not making a statement of fact about that which is why I said 'more likely' but just speaking from memory of certain players who've moved to bigger clubs. For example, Liverpool were interested in the two Stockport lads a few seasons back, Greg Tansey and Ryan Crowther. Both went on trial and Crowther signed, whereas Tansey decided to remain with Stockport. 4 years later, Tansey was playing regularly in the SPL after over 100 appearances for Stockport and Crowther had just finished a spell in the Northern Premier Division. Not saying Crowther would have gone the same way as Tansey had he have stayed, but you hear of this all the time.

Ngoo was sold at the age of 16 before EPPP for £250,000. We would have got probably 1/8 of that if it was now. The system only caters for the elite and makes it more affordable for Premiership teams to sign promising young players for a bargain price.

The pricing is the only controversial part of EPPP, which was meant to revolutionise the youth structure in England.

The fact is that there are a small minority of players that will ever become professional. Clarke Carlisle said in his TV programme about on BBC about Depression that about 1% will make it to be a professional player. So if 1 person makes it, 99 will not.

Another thing is the mentality of the player, imagine you are 15 again and a youth player at Southend then Arsenal come along and say they want you. Honestly, would 15 year old you thought that you'd made it IF someone didn't tell you?

 

[amsemp]

The pricing is the only controversial part of EPPP, which was meant to revolutionise the youth structure in England.

The fact is that there are a small minority of players that will ever become professional. Clarke Carlisle said in his TV programme about on BBC about Depression that about 1% will make it to be a professional player. So if 1 person makes it, 99 will not.

Another thing is the mentality of the player, imagine you are 15 again and a youth player at Southend then Arsenal come along and say they want you. Honestly, would 15 year old you thought that you'd made it IF someone didn't tell you?

Something had to be done to improve youth development in the English game but they went about it in the wrong way by pulling the rug from under the smaller club's feet. Hereford, Wycombe and Yeovil completely folded their youth setups as a result of it and I personally find it unforgivable that a plan designed to improve youth facilities actually ceased three.

Totally get what you're saying but I think players have a much higher chance of making the grade at a lower level than a Premiership club. Is Ted Smith more likely to make his professional debut at Southend, or at Manchester City if they sign him now?

Understandably 15 year old's aren't the most logical thinkers and I can only imagine what must go through their heads being told that a club like Arsenal want them. Unfortunately reality rarely aligns with their dreams, despite many valuable lessons out there which they should certainly be learning from (step forward Mr Bostock).

Funnily enough, I currently work with the sister of an ex-footballer who was featured in that Clarke Carlisle programme after he didn't make the grade. She's told me about his mentality at the time when everything was plain sailing and she said he inevitably came back to earth with a bang when it didn't work out. Attitude and mentality arguably defines a player and at the age of 14/15/16 you would hope that better guidance and support was available for these lads aiming for a career in football.

 

[chapperzUK]

Not everyone was going to be happy with the EPPP and the only problem is the signing fee for players, but the EPPP is more than that. It is meant to make sure more clubs invest in their youth setups and give them more time with players to coach with. It also covers the coaching side to make sure the quality of coaching is better through the courses they go on to achieve the badges.

Of course a player will have a greater chance of playing at Southend than Man City, but what will help his development more - 2 seasons as a league 2 player or being back up at a Premiership club and playing in cup matches and the odd league match?

An interesting case to look at is Paul Pogba, was at Man Utd and at around the age of 19 he thought he was good enough to be getting games but didn't get many - total of about 3 appearances for them. After about 45 games at Juventus he is now seen as one of the biggest midfielders in Europe, would he have made the same progress if he stayed at his first team Roissey-en-Brie?

Playing games against players who are better will help a players' development. Of course you could say throwing them in at the deep end could hurt their confidence and development, so there is always an appropriate level.

 

[amsemp]

Not everyone was going to be happy with the EPPP and the only problem is the signing fee for players, but the EPPP is more than that. It is meant to make sure more clubs invest in their youth setups and give them more time with players to coach with. It also covers the coaching side to make sure the quality of coaching is better through the courses they go on to achieve the badges.

Of course a player will have a greater chance of playing at Southend than Man City, but what will help his development more - 2 seasons as a league 2 player or being back up at a Premiership club and playing in cup matches and the odd league match?

An interesting case to look at is Paul Pogba, was at Man Utd and at around the age of 19 he thought he was good enough to be getting games but didn't get many - total of about 3 appearances for them. After about 45 games at Juventus he is now seen as one of the biggest midfielders in Europe, would he have made the same progress if he stayed at his first team Roissey-en-Brie?

Playing games against players who are better will help a players' development. Of course you could say throwing them in at the deep end could hurt their confidence and development, so there is always an appropriate level.

You are Sir Dave Richards and I claim my £5 :winking:

I do agree though. Swings and roundabouts really. I do wish more of our youngsters would take a leaf out of Dan Bentley's book though. I don't think one fan would begrudge him a big move given the way he's gone about his business. Very mature head on those shoulders and an example to all youth team lads.

 

[united we stand]

Everyone keeps using Bentley as an example, but to me he has been very very lucky and an outfield player may not have had the same chances. Brown did not intend to start him as number one this season but an injury to smith and then a bereavement meant that Brown had no choice to play Dan, and of course Dan took his chance. This was helped by the fact that smith had not had a great season. If the same set of circumstances happened with an outfieldplayer Brown may have cchosen to play an older outfield player out of position before going to the youngster.

Dan has done brilliantly but I don't think his example necessarily proves the case for outfield players