Is This Correct Or Lefty PC Gone Mad?

[londonblue]

The Palestinians have not been recognised as a State, but they have been granted Observer status at the UN, which is a step on the way. The Oslo peace accord, which the Palestinians signed, specifically stated that they should not apply for Observer status as progress towards Statehood should be linked to concessions from BOTH sides. The Israelis have made a number of concessions. Each time the Palestinians have failed to reciprocate - can anyone name one concession to peace that they have made?

I am in no doubt that Israel does many regrettable things. But remember that when Palestinian civilians are killed, it is not an intentional act by Israel. The Palestinians target Israeli civilians as a matter of policy. Where is the outcry over that?

Reference is always being made to the 1967 borders. Why is Israel now in possession of land which prior to 1967 it didn't have? Because they were attacked without provocation or warning by their Arab neighbours, who fully intended to wipe Israel off the map. Israel beat them. Should they hand the land back? Some of it (but certainly not the Gollan heights, which are strategically vitally to Israel) but it has to be a matter of negotiation around a table and while the Palestinians are failing to stick to their agreements time after time, it won't happen. And why should the Palestinians stick to these agreements? They are winning the propaganda war* and the longer they can keep this "Illegal Blockade" in place (and they don't in the least want it lifted) the more they are getting concessions from the World's nations, without having to give anything in return. By giving the Palestinians Observer status, the UN has made peace less likely, not more.


And perhaps those of you on the left who support the Palestinian cause could ponder on the answer to the question, "Where do Gay Palestinians flee to, to avoid persecution (and death) in Gaza and the West Bank......?"

*Why did the BBC commission a report into whether it had been displaying an anti-Israeli bias (paid for by the licence payer) and then when they received it, refuse to publish it and then use more licence payer's money in the courts blocking any attempt to access it under FOI legislation? Over £300k, in fact.

An interesting concession Fateh (west bank) promised to make was to remove the destruction of Israel from its constitution. That was in 1994. In 1997 they acknowledged that they hadn't done so yet. They still haven't.

I understand the parallels that people draw with us and the IRA, but at least the IRA wasn't calling for the destruction of the UK. In comparison they were also rather gentlemenly in that they at least phoned a warning of attack...Moreover, their constitution didn't say that a negotiated peace is a waste of time because the UK doesn't have the right to exist, whereas the Hamas one says that about Israel.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

You're forgetting(or ignoring)the fact that Israel took out a Hamas leader before that.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/nov/24/israel1?INTCMP=SRCH

for a steak meal?

No.For his Last Supper.:winking:

 

[londonblue]

No.For his Last Supper.:winking:

And that comment (because it is a reference to Christianity) could potentially get you killed in Gaza.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

And that comment (because it is a reference to Christianity) could potentially get you killed in Gaza.

Just as well I didn't take up a job I was offered(many years ago)at the University of Ramallah,isn't it?:smile:

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I'd be interested to hear if anyone can enlighten me on the Jewish split among right wingers. The Republican Americans are obviously big supporters of Israel but I would assume that is largely down to needing an ally in various parts of the globe and Israel being the ideal candidate on a 'friend in need' basis. That works on a governmental level but many of the racist right also back Israel and I don't know if this is due to a hatred of Islam and therefore they are the lesser of the two evils? Added to this I guess is the Jewish / Christian similarities. Other elements of the racist right would have anti Semitic beliefs at their core and there are a lot of racist groups that have full belief in Zionist conspiracy theories. I'm just wondering if there is a straight forward reason for the two camps and if it largely falls into a split between the American racist right and the European racist right (though clearly there are American neo Nazis that buck that trend). Anyone?
Should point out I'm not saying that all right wingers are racist, just interested in the distinct differences in those that are.

 

[Crabby Shrimper]

I'd be interested to hear if anyone can enlighten me on the Jewish split among right wingers. The Republican Americans are obviously big supporters of Israel but I would assume that is largely down to needing an ally in various parts of the globe and Israel being the ideal candidate on a 'friend in need' basis. That works on a governmental level but many of the racist right also back Israel and I don't know if this is due to a hatred of Islam and therefore they are the lesser of the two evils? Added to this I guess is the Jewish / Christian similarities. Other elements of the racist right would have anti Semitic beliefs at their core and there are a lot of racist groups that have full belief in Zionist conspiracy theories. I'm just wondering if there is a straight forward reason for the two camps and if it largely falls into a split between the American racist right and the European racist right (though clearly there are American neo Nazis that buck that trend). Anyone?
Should point out I'm not saying that all right wingers are racist, just interested in the distinct differences in those that are.

Interesting question, and not one I have the answer to. I'm wondering whether it's as simple as certain elements of the extreme European right blindly following the ideals of Hitler, though that'd be a guess.

As for the similarities between the Christian/Jewish faiths, there's a probably closer similarity (in purely faith and belief terms) between Judaism and Islam, and similarly Catholicism and Protestantism, and we know how well those two pairs get along!

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

It's simple for me, I believe in personal freedom and responsibility. Islam, socialism/communism and big government diminish the individual and emphasize a collective that is less than the sum of its parts. Israel is a capitalist country which follows the Judeo-Christian model of social and economic governance. A.S.S.'s question arises, I believe from the demonisation of economic right wingers as 'fascists' by the Gramsci-ite media, when the collective ethos and cults of personality associated with the left are far more reminiscent of Hitler, Mussolini et al.

 

[C C Csiders]

I'd be interested to hear if anyone can enlighten me on the Jewish split among right wingers. The Republican Americans are obviously big supporters of Israel but I would assume that is largely down to needing an ally in various parts of the globe and Israel being the ideal candidate on a 'friend in need' basis. That works on a governmental level but many of the racist right also back Israel and I don't know if this is due to a hatred of Islam and therefore they are the lesser of the two evils? Added to this I guess is the Jewish / Christian similarities. Other elements of the racist right would have anti Semitic beliefs at their core and there are a lot of racist groups that have full belief in Zionist conspiracy theories. I'm just wondering if there is a straight forward reason for the two camps and if it largely falls into a split between the American racist right and the European racist right (though clearly there are American neo Nazis that buck that trend). Anyone?
Should point out I'm not saying that all right wingers are racist, just interested in the distinct differences in those that are.

My understanding is that the fundamentalist Christian right of the US believes that the final judgement and rapture (and all that kind of thing) will be served up via Armageddon which will commence in the middle-east via a war between Israel and A.N.other country; and, thus, their support for Israel in the hope that all this comes to pass.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Thanks for the responses. I was careful in my wording but maybe I should have made clearer that I was refering to those that would call themselves racists rather than those that others may accuse of being racist.
All replies make sense though. I think there is a European / American divide in that the extreme right wing here are more likely to have Hitler as their poster boy whereas the Americans are more inclined to accept the central government position on Israel as that fits in with an anti Arab stance. Cold War anti Communism would definately feed that and as Rusty says an economic / political allegiance which would be given far more importance in the US. The individualism angle is a little strange when you consider that Jewish families are big on marrying within the faith and financial support for each other - which is also a Muslim trait.
The judgement day angle works in that Jews and Christians share a god and Judeo-Christian civilisations being seen by historians of being closely linked and developing along similar lines, but I'd have thought that those Christians would be demoting themselves if the main battle is a Jewish / Islamic one.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

I'd be interested to hear if anyone can enlighten me on the Jewish split among right wingers. The Republican Americans are obviously big supporters of Israel but I would assume that is largely down to needing an ally in various parts of the globe and Israel being the ideal candidate on a 'friend in need' basis. That works on a governmental level but many of the racist right also back Israel and I don't know if this is due to a hatred of Islam and therefore they are the lesser of the two evils? Added to this I guess is the Jewish / Christian similarities. Other elements of the racist right would have anti Semitic beliefs at their core and there are a lot of racist groups that have full belief in Zionist conspiracy theories. I'm just wondering if there is a straight forward reason for the two camps and if it largely falls into a split between the American racist right and the European racist right (though clearly there are American neo Nazis that buck that trend). Anyone?
Should point out I'm not saying that all right wingers are racist, just interested in the distinct differences in those that are.

Firstly, American support of Israel is for domestic reasons (think of it as they don't want to upset those wealthy retired Jewish grannies in Florida) rather than any need for a global ally.

Second, of the modern parties, the Republican party wasn't historically the racist one. That was the Democratic party. Parties are broad coalitions and the US is a huge and diverse country hence the Democrats managed to combine being the party of the racists with being the party of the civil rights movement.

Third, it's possible to hate Jews and support Israel. Israel having a homeland means there's somewhere to get rid of them all to.

Fourth, the EDL etc are being quite pro-Israeli in a my enemy's enemy is my friend type of way, so is your characteristic of the European racist right correct?

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Firstly, American support of Israel is for domestic reasons (think of it as they don't want to upset those wealthy retired Jewish grannies in Florida) rather than any need for a global ally.

Second, of the modern parties, the Republican party wasn't historically the racist one. That was the Democratic party. Parties are broad coalitions and the US is a huge and diverse country hence the Democrats managed to combine being the party of the racists with being the party of the civil rights movement.

Third, it's possible to hate Jews and support Israel. Israel having a homeland means there's somewhere to get rid of them all to.

Fourth, the EDL etc are being quite pro-Israeli in a my enemy's enemy is my friend type of way, so is your characteristic of the European racist right correct?

Interesting what you say about the Democrats, with a two party system they would have to appeal to a wide selection but that sounds very broad. Can't say I know too much about their background.

With the EDL they spout lies. They allege that their whole premise is anti Islamic and that they are not racist but that has been disproven many times and their personnel is made up of football hooligans and people who have been connected to all of the trad racist groups such as NF and BNP. For PR reasons they will not want to be seen as anti Semitic because of the connection with Nazism but only a tiny proportion of their members are anything other than racists and anti Semites.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Interesting what you say about the Democrats, with a two party system they would have to appeal to a wide selection but that sounds very broad. Can't say I know too much about their background.

With the EDL they spout lies. They allege that their whole premise is anti Islamic and that they are not racist but that has been disproven many times and their personnel is made up of football hooligans and people who have been connected to all of the trad racist groups such as NF and BNP. For PR reasons they will not want to be seen as anti Semitic because of the connection with Nazism but only a tiny proportion of their members are anything other than racists and anti Semites.

Some very sweeping statements about the EDL there. Do you have any evidence to back up these assertions? I am a member and I'm certainly no anti-Semite. I'm assuming your knowledge of this topic is based on the same sources from which your ignorance regarding the US Democrats springs - the sweet sum of **** all. The Democrats' claim to being the 'party of civil rights' is an utterly scandalous rewriting of history. The Republican party was essentially born to abolish slavery, and the KKK were the paramilitary wing of Southern Democrats.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Some very sweeping statements about the EDL there. Do you have any evidence to back up these assertions? I am a member and I'm certainly no anti-Semite. I'm assuming your knowledge of this topic is based on the same sources from which your ignorance regarding the US Democrats springs - the sweet sum of **** all. The Democrats' claim to being the 'party of civil rights' is an utterly scandalous rewriting of history. The Republican party was essentially born to abolish slavery, and the KKK were the paramilitary wing of Southern Democrats.

I've said that I know very little about the American parties.
You live in the States and seem to embrace that culture and I would assume are not the average EDL member because of that. I've subscribed to Searchlight for a number of years and they photograph racist demos and at the heart of the EDL are all the old faces that have been photographed at BNP and NF gatherings. There is a lot of infighting amongst those groups and therefore information becomes available from their own members to outsiders. It makes the monitoring of them a quite straight forward process. The mainstream press - The Sun and The Mail - had vaguely sympathetic reporting on the EDL in its initial form as they saw it as a reaction to poppy burners but that didn't last long and now its broadly accepted that they are straight forward racist thugs.

Tommy Robinson or whatever he is calling himself today is currently in prison awaiting charge on trying to enter the US on a fake passport. Is that ironic?

 

[Napster]

Is that ironic?

It's like raiiiiinn