It's ok to carry a knife for religion!

[Bielzibubz]

Nope your first sentance is bolloks you immediatly take it out of context get the most ridiculous assumption you can and try and use it as a reason . For heavens sake do you even know any sihks , do you know the siz eof it teh practicalities of using it. As MK said you going to have him nicked for being a sparky ? Maybe cheifs or butchers , or maybe all martial artist on their way to say kata displays with Japnese swords . Becuase id be far more afraid of teh afformentioned group then some silly sword who had no idea how to use it .

No I don't know any Sikhs. No I don't know the size of the practicalities of using it, whatever that means. And NO I don't really care what their religious beliefs are. What I do care about is the growing number of casualties due to knife crime (and no I'm not suggesting any Sikhs that carry a sheathed knife would or have used it maliciously)

And to use the MK's alalogy. I'm sometimes called to work on sites that require me to use knives of various sizes. I cannot take those knives off site. I cannot carry any of them home in my car or on my person off site. I used to but got pulled over once and very nearly got done for carrying an dangerous weapon.

And if my assumption about a sheath is wrong why mention it in the first place. Does having a knife in a sheath make it any less illegal. No, that was the point I was making. What yours was I fail to see.

At the end of the day as far as I'm concerned there is no reason for carrying a knife on your person (except possibly for work, and even then with strict safety measures taken) and certainly not on religious grounds.

If that's being religiously intolerant so be it. Guilty as charged.

 

[WestRoadShrimper]

Nope your first sentance is bolloks you immediatly take it out of context get the most ridiculous assumption you can and try and use it as a reason . For heavens sake do you even know any sihks , do you know the siz eof it teh practicalities of using it.

It didn't appear that he'd taken your statement out of context in the slightest.

As to the highlighted bit, from biology lessons I don't recall the heart being that far behind the ribcage and as such is quite nicely(!) placed for a blade to reach it. It doesn't need a big knife to achieve that at all, and the knife they carry would be more than adequate to do the job.

Size, sheath, all irrelevant. It's a knife. It can do harm if used (not just by the carrier, but also on the carrier) and carrying knives is banned. This is religious tollerance going too far, simple as that.

 

[osymandus]

No I don't know any Sikhs. No I don't know the size of the practicalities of using it, whatever that means. And NO I don't really care what their religious beliefs are. What I do care about is the growing number of casualties due to knife crime (and no I'm not suggesting any Sikhs that carry a sheathed knife would or have used it maliciously)

And to use the MK's alalogy. I'm sometimes called to work on sites that require me to use knives of various sizes. I cannot take those knives off site. I cannot carry any of them home in my car or on my person off site. I used to but got pulled over once and very nearly got done for carrying an dangerous weapon.

And if my assumption about a sheath is wrong why mention it in the first place. Does having a knife in a sheath make it any less illegal. No, that was the point I was making. What yours was I fail to see.

At the end of the day as far as I'm concerned there is no reason for carrying a knife on your person (except possibly for work, and even then with strict safety measures taken) and certainly not on religious grounds.

If that's being religiously intolerant so be it. Guilty as charged.

I noticed , well my argument, is your assumption is that a social or ethical group cannot be trusted with an item that other use in a day to day basis , on the grounds your worried (and you admit by your own ignorance) that my may act in a way that a smaller minority of society who are shown to have little ethics morals or conscience. These people who follow a strict code and adhere to it will act in an almost identical mannerr because they hold similarlar objects . Wow no I'm impressed by not only your ineffable logic but your understanding of anthropology insite into your fellow man . DO you read the red tops by chance ?

 

[osymandus]

It didn't appear that he'd taken your statement out of context in the slightest.

As to the highlighted bit, from biology lessons I don't recall the heart being that far behind the ribcage and as such is quite nicely(!) placed for a blade to reach it. It doesn't need a big knife to achieve that at all, and the knife they carry would be more than adequate to do the job.

Size, sheath, all irrelevant. It's a knife. It can do harm if used (not just by the carrier, but also on the carrier) and carrying knives is banned. This is religious tollerance going too far, simple as that.

No its not because there's a point youve completely missed. Intent , now i can do damage with a hammer a screw driver a bull point pen if i was so inclinded to do so , a brick in a sock is a nasty weapon as well . And while i agree knfie crime has gone up theres a world of differnece between accidently stabing and really going at someone with intent and knwoiing where to place it. And teh practicalities of sheathed un sheated and lenght can make a massive diffence , say between a kitchen steak knife and a non live cermonial blade (i.e its blunt) . Now all the guys i knew carried blunt blades without edge or point which had teh effectiveness of a butter knife .

 

[WestRoadShrimper]

No its not because there's a point youve completely missed. Intent , now i can do damage with a hammer a screw driver a bull point pen if i was so inclinded to do so , a brick in a sock is a nasty weapon as well . And while i agree knfie crime has gone up theres a world of differnece between accidently stabing and really going at someone with intent and knwoiing where to place it. And teh practicalities of sheathed un sheated and lenght can make a massive diffence , say between a kitchen steak knife and a non live cermonial blade (i.e its blunt) . Now all the guys i knew carried blunt blades without edge or point which had teh effectiveness of a butter knife .

Fair points, but you're not the only one who's seen these knives. A knife does not have to be sharp to cut, or to puncture.

And the point that you miss is that if they get into a fight, the person attacking them may well know they have a knife and it could all get messy from there.

For the vast majority of us it doesn't matter a jot to the police WHY we may have a knife about our persons, we would all get dealt with in the same way. Some people may have legitimate reasons to carry a knife, but at the end of the day if they carry it in their pocket etc then the police can, and most probably will, take action if discovered. The Sikhs may have a religious reason to carry it, but as I said before that shouldn't make the blindest bit of difference.

The law is the law, and it should be applied equally to all.

 

[Bielzibubz]

That Sikh carrying that knife is no more or less intent on committing a knife crime than me. I'm not allowed to carry one, neither should he be.

A brick in a sock is an offensive weapon and you'd be nicked for carrying it.

Blunt knife/sword, sharp knife/sword. Both offensive weapons and you'd be knicked for carrying either.

Two inch blade, nine inch blade. Both can kill and are illegal. Again you'd get knicked for carrying either.

Sheathed or unsheathed. Practicalities have sod all to do with it. It's an offensive weapon and is illegal.

Irrespective of size, sharpness, sheathed or not, all knives carried in public are illegal, except in exceptional circumstances. Religious beliefs are not one of those circumstances.

Now you can try and preach to me the why's and wherefores about why we should be more tolerant to those of differing beliefs, and to an extent I agree, we should be, but a line is drawn when it comes to the laws of this land and that line cannot be crossed because of that differing belief.

 

[osymandus]

That Sikh carrying that knife is no more or less intent on committing a knife crime than me. I'm not allowed to carry one, neither should he be.

A brick in a sock is an offensive weapon and you'd be nicked for carrying it.

Blunt knife/sword, sharp knife/sword. Both offensive weapons and you'd be knicked for carrying either.

Two inch blade, nine inch blade. Both can kill and are illegal. Again you'd get knicked for carrying either.

Sheathed or unsheathed. Practicalities have sod all to do with it. It's an offensive weapon and is illegal.

Irrespective of size, sharpness, sheathed or not, all knives carried in public are illegal, except in exceptional circumstances. Religious beliefs are not one of those circumstances.

Now you can try and preach to me the why's and wherefores about why we should be more tolerant to those of differing beliefs, and to an extent I agree, we should be, but a line is drawn when it comes to the laws of this land and that line cannot be crossed because of that differing belief.

You would be if you became a Sikh or a pagan (for short durations in the latter case). Two inc or nine inch . No , not if your an artist or a Cheif (on can carrie modeling scaples for instance , the other various carving , deboning knifes). It does matter teh practicalities becuase it places it within the context as defined by the law it is covered by.

But the point of the law and the creation of them is to do with the intent of and possible outcomes of the actions . Masons can carry their blades for instance for ceremonial purposes (and their swords). The law was altered to permit Sikhs to carry them . The law was also amended to permit you to carry blades up to sword length as long as they within a sealed container and not easier accessible (i know this as after having bought i tai chi sword i asked a friendly copper in southen dhigh streeet and as long as i kept it ion the box i was fine to carry it between hone and destination). It also applies to Pagans for instance . Wiccans use ceremonial daggers , as already mentioned Masons carry their blades to their lodges.

 

[Benfleet A1]

I think that what is being missed here is your average electrician, mechanic, mason or butcher wouldn't be taking a knife to an amusement park hidden or otherwise. And just how would the average security guard know you were carrying one unless it was on display.

 

[MK Shrimper]

What's also being missed out is intent.

You're average Sikh in religious garb isn't going to go out and mug a teenager for their mobile phone.

 

[OldBlueLady]

What's also being missed out is intent.

You're average Sikh in religious garb isn't going to go out and mug a teenager for their mobile phone.

No agreed Paul, but he could be mugged himself for his knife. It's just plain stupid and back to the old argument of living in a country where there are recognised laws but choosing to defy them in the name of religion. If you can't accept the laws in the country you currently live in (whether you were born there or not) then go live in a country where your beliefs coincide with the laws of that land.

No-one should have need to carry a knife on their person, if people need them as part of their work then they're usually in a toolbox or kit so they aren't actually on them. I've known a few Sikhs and not one of them has ever felt the need to do this, it's just people stirring up trouble again in the name of religion.

 

[Bielzibubz]

What's also being missed out is intent.

You're average Sikh in religious garb isn't going to go out and mug a teenager for their mobile phone.

I fail to see this argument. As far as intent is concerned what is the difference between the Sikh carrying a knife and me? None as far as I can see. So the only difference is the religious belief/tradition aspect.

 

[BrettieAngell]

I think that what is being missed here is your average electrician, mechanic, mason or butcher wouldn't be taking a knife to an amusement park hidden or otherwise. And just how would the average security guard know you were carrying one unless it was on display.

Nail.On.The.Head.

To my mind that is just stupid and whinging about it is pathetic.

 

[osymandus]

Nail.On.The.Head.

To my mind that is just stupid and whinging about it is pathetic.

And im not arguing about that part . If you carrying it full display in a park thats a bit silly . ITs these misunderstood arguments that course the issue . The old Hindui guy a few weeks back who wanted to get open air burning back becuase he thought it was an integral part of his relgion (turns out one of teh teaching council of Hinduis came on teh radio and said it never had been and was an old local tradition that he wanted .

OBL , its propably a lot easier to buy yourself a modeling knife or scaple then it is to mugg a sigh for his (or even a sparky etc) . We have a knife issue in this country but going after the easy targets is frankly pointless .

 

[claretshrimp]

god bless

God bless Enoch powell bet he,s saying " i told you so"

 

[Hotman]

What's also being missed out is intent.

You're average Sikh in religious garb isn't going to go out and mug a teenager for their mobile phone.

And "you're" average muslim in a burkha isn't going to have a bomb in their backpack.

MK, regardless of intent, do you feel it would be acceptable for a 15 year old white male to carry round a blade (because it was a sentimental gift from his dad of course...)?

 

[MK Shrimper]

God bless Enoch powell bet he,s saying " i told you so"

Nice to know you're fitting the stereotype of the archetypal West Ham fan.

 

[osymandus]

And "you're" average muslim in a burkha isn't going to have a bomb in their backpack.

MK, regardless of intent, do you feel it would be acceptable for a 15 year old white male to carry round a blade (because it was a sentimental gift from his dad of course...)?

Comes down to intent and purpose , is he a sparkies mate ? In which case whys he allowed at 15 to carry it ? How's it being carried . TO many people are giving carte blanc situations that are not what is being argued here . Anyone carrying a blade in their open arms held up right in a busy high street needs to be taken to one side if even for their own sake ("No sir the voices are not telling you to avenge woolies") If its in a given context in which they are away or safe (i.e a sheath with a latch or a scabbard equaliy closed and not avaliable to be opend in seconds ) then there should be no issue.

 

[Hotman]

Comes down to intent and purpose , is he a sparkies mate ? In which case whys he allowed at 15 to carry it ? How's it being carried . TO many people are giving carte blanc situations that are not what is being argued here . Anyone carrying a blade in their open arms held up right in a busy high street needs to be taken to one side if even for their own sake ("No sir the voices are not telling you to avenge woolies") If its in a given context in which they are away or safe (i.e a sheath with a latch or a scabbard equaliy closed and not avaliable to be opend in seconds ) then there should be no issue.

Is the Sikh an electrician? That "electrician" argument used by you and MK has to be the weakest argument on this thread!

I'm more worried about encountering someone with a knife in their pocket / bag / belt etc than someone holding it openly - at least if i see the blade I can avoid the situation...

 

[osymandus]

Is the Sikh an electrician? That "electrician" argument used by you and MK has to be the weakest argument on this thread!

I'm more worried about encountering someone with a knife in their pocket / bag / belt etc than someone holding it openly - at least if i see the blade I can avoid the situation...

Their parents normally want them to be lawyers doctors ... ahum any way . Could be and this is my point 1) You have to understand the context, there's any number of lethal weapons being carried by perfectly normal looking people. There not all nutters becuase they dresse funny. The price of your own libertie is your own personal vigilance and awareness.
2) You probably need to work a little on paranoia issues if you think a large number of people are carrying knifes for the random purposes . If its in the hand your in trouble if its in the bag you got time to get away. But and this is what has got me about the media **** storm that people like yourslef are worried about , this is nothing new "villians" have been doing this for centuries , a small minority of society thats used everything from saps, dirks , candlesticks and what ever is to hand to inflict and will do as long as what ever is easiets to hand . WE focus on the medium in which the violence is transmited not its source.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Is the Sikh an electrician? That "electrician" argument used by you and MK has to be the weakest argument on this thread!

Agreed. Intent has absolutely nothing to do with it in the context of the law. As I've said before. I use knives at work all the time, predominantly a four inch lock knife. I keep it in a side pocket whilst at work but if I forgot to lock it away at the end of the day and was pulled over on the way home and that knife was found on my possession I'd get knicked. I have no more intent on using that knife as a weapon as a Sikh carrying his religious blade. What's the difference?