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Jack Payne in League 1

Norwichshrimper

Can you hear Talvin Singh
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Messages
2,418
It's a tough one, I think he is a luxury player and that he has to be scoring or creating regularly as he doesn't offer much else. I know people say about his tracking back and tackling in the playoff final but IMO it's a rarity. He probably needs a run of games to settle and for us to see just what he is capible of in this league. Will he get them? Only if he forces himself into the fold with big performances off the bench or when played in JPT. It sounds like he did ok against Crawley but not enough to trouble those playing ahead of him. I think Phil is doing the right thing, he isn't forcing his way into the team and I don't think the risk of playing him for an extended run in the team is worth it based purely on his potential.

This is exactly the point with Payne...Luxury player is maybe not the exact description, but essentially he isn't a striker, he isn't a central midfielder and he isn't a winger (and obviously not a defender or a GK). Therefore he does not fit into any traditional tactical set up (442, 451, 541, or 433)....this is nothing to do with his ability, just the type of player he is....if he was good enough he would have fitted well into the Dutch side in 1974, but wouldn't have fitted into England's side in 1966.
He is the sort of player that if you include in your XI you have to make sacrifices elsewhere, you have to play one less striker, one less midfielder or winger to accommodate him - so I guess that does make him a "luxury player"

The problem for Jack is that very few players have made successful careers for themselves playing that role....if you want to play the luxury player role, you have to be very very good. Matt LeTissier, Rafael Van Der Vaart, Lionel Messi, Diego Maradona, Kris Commons, Juan Mata are a few examples of that type of player...but they are/were all very very good players (for their respective levels before anyone thinks I'm comparing Kris Commons with Diego Maradona).

If you don't fill a designated role in the team, then you have to have skills in your amoury that others don't have, you need to justify your own place in the team as well as justifying leaving another position unfilled. I think Jack has that ability to fill that role, I'm just not sure he has enough about him to fill that role in the third tier of English Football.

I like Jack Payne, he's the sort of player I want to watch at Roots Hall, I just don't really know what we should do with him - I suspect neither does Phil Brown
 

Chalky

Coach
Joined
Mar 27, 2014
Messages
1,499
This is exactly the point with Payne...Luxury player is maybe not the exact description, but essentially he isn't a striker, he isn't a central midfielder and he isn't a winger (and obviously not a defender or a GK). Therefore he does not fit into any traditional tactical set up (442, 451, 541, or 433)....this is nothing to do with his ability, just the type of player he is....if he was good enough he would have fitted well into the Dutch side in 1974, but wouldn't have fitted into England's side in 1966.
He is the sort of player that if you include in your XI you have to make sacrifices elsewhere, you have to play one less striker, one less midfielder or winger to accommodate him - so I guess that does make him a "luxury player"

The problem for Jack is that very few players have made successful careers for themselves playing that role....if you want to play the luxury player role, you have to be very very good. Matt LeTissier, Rafael Van Der Vaart, Lionel Messi, Diego Maradona, Kris Commons, Juan Mata are a few examples of that type of player...but they are/were all very very good players (for their respective levels before anyone thinks I'm comparing Kris Commons with Diego Maradona).

If you don't fill a designated role in the team, then you have to have skills in your amoury that others don't have, you need to justify your own place in the team as well as justifying leaving another position unfilled. I think Jack has that ability to fill that role, I'm just not sure he has enough about him to fill that role in the third tier of English Football.

I like Jack Payne, he's the sort of player I want to watch at Roots Hall, I just don't really know what we should do with him - I suspect neither does Phil Brown

I agree with most of what you've said. But I don't agree with the parts I highlighted, he could easily play in a 4-5-1, the role he would play would be ahead of the other midfielders, giving him a license to roam and float. Same goes for a 4-3-3.

You could say the same for Anthony Wordsworth, being a 'Luxury' player.
 

Rayleigh boy

Director⭐
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
Messages
4,297
I think he will end up as a wide player - he has a good eye for creative play.

Perhaps at the moment he cannot sacrifice his natural game for a more limited role wide but I think it will come to him.

Maybe later on he will end up more central - as did Mark Gower in the prem

(how good was Tilson !)
 
Joined
Nov 13, 2011
Messages
8,061
Location
SW1A 0PW
The problem for Jack is that very few players have made successful careers for themselves playing that role....if you want to play the luxury player role, you have to be very very good. Matt LeTissier, Rafael Van Der Vaart, Lionel Messi, Sofiene Zaaboub, Diego Maradona, Kris Commons, Juan Mata are a few examples of that type of player...but they are/were all very very good players (for their respective levels before anyone thinks I'm comparing Kris Commons with Diego Maradona).

Are you sure?
 

Fairport

Coach⭐
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
1,889
Location
Shoeburyness
You have put your finger right on the nub of the issue. If Payne is in the starting XI, then who isn't?

Put Timlin in Deegans holding role and play Payne in the more forward midfield role. Worrell could also be left out, Payne could take his place, it would mean playing a little narrower but the full backs can always get further forward. There are plenty of options as we have a lot of competition for midfield slots.
 

flangejackrabbit

Reclusive rabbit
Joined
May 28, 2014
Messages
1,783
Put Timlin in Deegans holding role and play Payne in the more forward midfield role. Worrell could also be left out, Payne could take his place, it would mean playing a little narrower but the full backs can always get further forward. There are plenty of options as we have a lot of competition for midfield slots.

Deegan's been one of our stand-out players this run of good results.
 

Jam_Man

Life President
Joined
Apr 7, 2005
Messages
25,545
Location
Southend
Put Timlin in Deegans holding role and play Payne in the more forward midfield role. Worrell could also be left out, Payne could take his place, it would mean playing a little narrower but the full backs can always get further forward. There are plenty of options as we have a lot of competition for midfield slots.

If you put Jack in central midfield he then has to do more defensive work, he isnt a central midfielder in my opinion and if he was to be put there people would have to accept he isnt going to be playing in as advanced positions as he does now.

Id never leave out Worrall for Payne either. We play too narrow as it is, take out our one true winger and we have no width whatsoever.

Payne will always have a use as we saw on Tuesday, if we dont play 442 he can be used, and in games where we do play 442 he makes a good impact sub.

As a first team starter whilst playing 442 Im not sure he fits in.
 

rigsby

Life President⭐
Joined
Oct 12, 2014
Messages
14,517
If you put Jack in central midfield he then has to do more defensive work, he isnt a central midfielder in my opinion and if he was to be put there people would have to accept he isnt going to be playing in as advanced positions as he does now.

Id never leave out Worrall for Payne either. We play too narrow as it is, take out our one true winger and we have no width whatsoever.

Payne will always have a use as we saw on Tuesday, if we dont play 442 he can be used, and in games where we do play 442 he makes a good impact sub.

As a first team starter whilst playing 442 Im not sure he fits in.

That was the perfect opportunity for Jack but it never happened. I have said before he is a possible forward.

But like the Crawley match he would struggle to make it happen, he would need a decent supply. We know he can finish and he makes space and some really good unrewarded runs. Look at Westons goal on Tuesday and watch Jacks run into the box. Remember the 10 minutes highlights from Morecambe last May watch his positioning when Lenny is shooting or crossing etc.
 
Joined
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Messages
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We know he can finish and he makes space and some really good unrewarded runs. Look at Westons goal on Tuesday and watch Jacks run into the box.

Yes, I wasn't there but saw the highlights and was impressed by Payne's desire to get into the box.
 

Sandbach Shrimper

Life President⭐
Joined
Oct 25, 2003
Messages
5,990
Location
East Cheshire
Payne was best last season when he was playing behind Corr. Now that we've moved to two up-front (most of the time) and with the number of central midfielders we have I can't see a place for him apart from as an impact sub. Loaning him out to a League Two side and seeing how he does might be a good move. Saying that, I don't see why Payne couldn't play on the wing. He's got the skills and trickery and he might not get so heavily marked and pushed around out on the wing as he does in the middle. JUst a thought.
 

Supa Shrimpa

Director⭐
Joined
Jan 19, 2009
Messages
2,956
I agree. I'd leave him out wide to run at people, to start with. Let Deegan, Timlin, Leonard and co handle the big tackles in the middle of the park.
 

geoffmundo

Manager⭐
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
Messages
2,026
Location
Colchester
That was the perfect opportunity for Jack but it never happened. I have said before he is a possible forward.

But like the Crawley match he would struggle to make it happen, he would need a decent supply. We know he can finish and he makes space and some really good unrewarded runs. Look at Westons goal on Tuesday and watch Jacks run into the box. Remember the 10 minutes highlights from Morecambe last May watch his positioning when Lenny is shooting or crossing etc.

Was that the match he started and scored our only goal after 10 mins? Also forced a great double save from their keeper in 2nd half?

Having said that I think he is still learning and will only get better and therefore we should persist and hopefully we will benefit. The start of last season he did well, away from home more than at home and for sometime he was actually top scorer before later on Corr surpassed him.
 

RHB

Super Moderator ⭐
Staff member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
22,534
Location
Westcliff riviera
Wasn't it Payne that put in a big tackle that led to our attack and that goal at Wembley?

It was, it certainly was............and it led to Weston crossing for Corr to nod down and Pigott to send the ball goalwards. Cue monster celebrations. Months on we are still discussing whether Payne, Weston and Pigott are worthy of regular places. It's the way of ShrimperZone.
 

Pubey

Guest
Remember the 10 minutes highlights from Morecambe last May watch his positioning when Lenny is shooting or crossing etc.

Was that the match he started and scored our only goal after 10 mins? Also forced a great double save from their keeper in 2nd half?

A game we lost 3-1 and massively underperformed. We never had a grip on that game.

Not blaming Payne for the loss, and he contributed in attack, however it's a good example of where the line-up was unbalanced, mainly to fit him in.
 

jaffa1

Manager
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
1,270
Apologies if someone has already said this (in a rush) but how many times this season has the ball actually been played into the lad's feet ?
 

rigsby

Life President⭐
Joined
Oct 12, 2014
Messages
14,517
A game we lost 3-1 and massively underperformed. We never had a grip on that game.

Not blaming Payne for the loss, and he contributed in attack, however it's a good example of where the line-up was unbalanced, mainly to fit him in.

Jack Payne was the only one who didn't underperform in that match. If anyone can post the Highlights , I think you'll see that Payne was involved in every attack playing as a forward alongside BC rather than the Mythical 451 that most on the zone claimed that day. We played poor that day but that was not due to being unbalanced.

From memory, lookout for Deegans pass of the match to BC. Luckily Corr failed to cushion a simple header to Payne or we may have all missed our day out at Wembley.
 
Last edited:

Pubey

Guest
Jack Payne was the only one who didn't underperform in that match. If anyone can post the Highlights , I think you'll see that Payne was involved in every attack playing as a forward alongside BC rather than the Mythical 451 that most on the zone claimed that day. We played poor that day but that was not due to being unbalanced.

From memory, lookout for Deegans pass of the match to BC. Luckily Corr failed to cushioned a simple header to Payne or we may have all missed our day out at Wembley.

Maybe, he played well. Also it was clearly a 4411. Payne played deeper than Corr. The issue was that Morecambe worked Payne out and nullified him after his really bright start, and Payne was knackered after 60 mins.

However the point is that by bringing him into the team, you have to play a certain way to get the best from him, and you forgo what someone else may have contributed.

I called Brown a moron at the time regarding Morecambe, the formation didn't work. We had won 7 games in a row playing 442 with Cassidy or Pigott alongside Corr. Brown then decided to change things and it backfired massively.
 
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