Local elections 2018

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Thanks for that A.S.S.:thumbsup:
I do think you should consider if you have, in effect, and in your own words, proved the point I was trying to make: Labour needs to be more about more people than just Momentum and London socialists.

But that is very much not the case. Labour were winning seats last week in Liverpool with, in some cases, 70+% of the vote, Labour took control of Portsmouth and were holding on to Councils in Barnsley, Birmingham, Blackburn, Bolton, Bradford, Burnley, Cambridge, Cheltenham, Coventry, Crawley, Exeter, Gateshead, Harlow, Hartlepool, Hastings, Hull, Ipswich, Leeds, Lincoln, nearly all of London, Manchester, Norwich, Oxford, Plymouth, Reading, Sheffield, Slough, Southampton, Stevenage, Sunderland, Wakefield, Wigan, Wolverhampton. This is Councils they control as a result of last week's elections not just seats.


During the second leadership campaign and the GE campaign Corbyn was being greeted by thousands of supporters all over the country.


Labour is about very much more that London socialists. They reach nearly every part of the country. They took 40% of the national vote.


It's not about Momentum either. Momentum is a campaigning tool, it doesn't make policy, policies are decided at conference.


Momentum are ordinary people the length and breadth of the country who in many cases felt disillusioned with politics and have been reengaged by recent Labour policies and they have been harnessed by Momentum's slick organisational skills and ability to make people want to be involved. They are also very effective at social media.


The Tories attack Momentum because they offer something the Tories lack - volunteers, people who want to donate their time to a cause. Momentum are a big threat to the Tories because it's something they can't counter by throwing money at it.


The mainstream media attack Momentum because (aside from the fact they attack anyone from the Left) they make full use of new media and do so with great success and in doing so reduce the influence of the mainstream media.


There are a lot of misconceptions and we are fed misconceptions for a reason.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Labour did well in the GE on a leave the EU mandate.. they have backtracked on that.. the key swing seats in any current GE are leave areas .. I’m gobsmacked labour has dumped,these voters into the laps of the tories.. they would sooner vote for Boris than staying in The EU.

can you post a link to Labour backtracking on respecting the Referendum result please, I missed that announcement.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Not on any of the news programmes I saw, figures quoted had them both neck and neck.

Trying to attach a screenshot from my phone but I doubt it's going to work. Using the council elections BBC gave a House of Commons projection of Labour 283 (+21), Conservative 280 (-38). LibDems 22 (+10)

obviously it's just a projection by BBC decided it had enough value to broadcast it.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Dress it up as much as you like and spin it for all it's worth. The facts remain. Given all that's happened to the Tories in the past few months with Brexit dividing opinion and with being 8 years being the Government of power you would have expected Labour to clean up at these local elections. I certainly thought they would but they didn't, and they didn't for a multitude of reasons.

All major news and media outlets are saying nothing much has changed and all is as it was. In that respect Labour failed and failed miserably. To be honest I think many of the electorate have the same thought process as me when it comes to the current political climate. I deplore and despair at some of the things the Tories have done and are doing but when push comes to shove and decisions have to be made the thought of JC and his cronies getting anywhere near No10 is just a plain out and out NO NO.

I have my own reasons for this and many many others have differing ones but the outcome (as demonstrated by the local election results) is the same. They don't trust or want JC and his cronies running things. It's that simple.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Dress it up as much as you like and spin it for all it's worth. The facts remain. Given all that's happened to the Tories in the past few months with Brexit dividing opinion and with being 8 years being the Government of power you would have expected Labour to clean up at these local elections. I certainly thought they would but they didn't, and they didn't for a multitude of reasons.

All major news and media outlets are saying nothing much has changed and all is as it was. In that respect Labour failed and failed miserably. To be honest I think many of the electorate have the same thought process as me when it comes to the current political climate. I deplore and despair at some of the things the Tories have done and are doing but when push comes to shove and decisions have to be made the thought of JC and his cronies getting anywhere near No10 is just a plain out and out NO NO.

I have my own reasons for this and many many others have differing ones but the outcome (as demonstrated by the local election results) is the same. They don't trust or want JC and his cronies running things. It's that simple.

read back what you just wrote and then remind yourself that the results were Labour gains and Tory losses and then it seems what you wrote is very true for you but not for the general public

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

Please don't take this as personal or bullying, BUT, you don't seem to be able to see " the wood for the trees" or understand the message. I SO want to be a Labour voter and want a Labour UK Guv, rather than Tory. BUT how can a sane, rational independent like me vote red if it gives a UK Guv with JC and DA in highest office. They are, for too many average voters unelectable, to those roles. Many Labour MPs know that too

 

[rigsby]

can you post a link to Labour backtracking on respecting the Referendum result please, I missed that announcement.

Try reading your own posts. After all you are the voice of Labour.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Please don't take this as personal or bullying, BUT, you don't seem to be able to see " the wood for the trees" or understand the message. I SO want to be a Labour voter and want a Labour UK Guv, rather than Tory. BUT how can a sane, rational independent like me vote red if it gives a UK Guv with JC and DA in highest office. They are, for too many average voters unelectable, to those roles. Many Labour MPs know that too

This isn't linked to a post but I assume it is aimed at me as I have been posting on this thread a lot.


I can't see the wood for the trees - what have I written that is unreasonable or untrue?

 

[Bielzibubz]

read back what you just wrote and then remind yourself that the results were Labour gains and Tory losses and then it seems what you wrote is very true for you but not for the general public

Spin spin spin. Once again you miss the point. They may have won a few seats and the Tories lost a few but, and this is what you don't seem to want to accept or understand, they should have done substantially better. That is their failure. Ask yourself why do you think that is. Why, after all the balls ups the Tories have made is that the undeniable truth?

As MG says, having JC et al in charge is just not a viable option for many many thousands of people that would otherwise prefer a Labour government leading this nation.

The British public just don't see JC and his acolytes as a viable voting option, one with the calibre of people required to run a country.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Spin spin spin. Once again you miss the point. They may have won a few seats and the Tories lost a few but, and this is what you don't seem to want to accept or understand, they should have done substantially better. That is their failure. Ask yourself why do you think that is. Why, after all the balls ups the Tories have made is that the undeniable truth?

As MG says, having JC et al in charge is just not a viable option for many many thousands of people that would otherwise prefer a Labour government leading this nation.

The British public just don't see JC and his acolytes as a viable voting option, one with the calibre of people required to run a country.

It's not spin, I'm not trying to trick anyone, I'm giving my opinion.

As a right leaning often non voter your opinion is taken on board but has to be taken in that context. Of course you will not like JC - it's not in your blood to do so and it's not in his to become what you want.


We are dealing with fine margins here. Cameron was a poor quality leader and he scraped into power with a hung Parliament and then again with a small majority. May is even worse and she scraped into power with a hung Parliament. When Labour win the next GE it will again be fine margins too, but with a manifesto that delivers real change.


Watering down policy, putting in place a middle of the roads politician who theoretically has wider appeal but generates little passion - that won't appeal to a lot of party members like me and won't appeal to a lot of the 40% who voted Labour in 2017.


This time last year polls put Labour on around 25%. The 2017 GE gave Labour 40%. The 2018 locals improved on the very good 2014 locals. No headline gains but improvement nonetheless. 2019 will see Brexit fail at the hands of the Tories and Labour will capitalise on that.


Why have a panic wholesale change because non Labour voters demand a change that will result in them still not voting Labour?


The improvements that Labour have made since 2015 GE are down to Corbyn and those who rally around him. The limitations are down to those same people. But unless someone has a new master plan and the personality and passion for that master plan then we stick with where we are going.


This time last year vs now. Or even 2015 vs now. Foolish to not take now and keep pushing it forward.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

Spin spin spin. Once again you miss the point. They may have won a few seats and the Tories lost a few but, and this is what you don't seem to want to accept or understand, they should have done substantially better. That is their failure. Ask yourself why do you think that is. Why, after all the balls ups the Tories have made is that the undeniable truth?

As MG says, having JC et al in charge is just not a viable option for many many thousands of people that would otherwise prefer a Labour government leading this nation.

The British public just don't see JC and his acolytes as a viable voting option, one with the calibre of people required to run a country.

This is THE point of most of what has happened. I am starting to think A.S.S. is on a wind up; along with many of Labour's core he doesn't recognise that basic point & keeps repeating that Labour hardcore supporters and Momentum back JC; BUT misses completely to comprehend that to win elections they need to reach out and garner the floating, middle of the road voter : which under JC they can not and never will.
And worse they are allowing a very very poor Tory elite to bimble on suffering only minor irritation from their ineffectiveness at Westminster; or in marginal constituencies.

 

[OldBlueLady]

This is THE point of most of what has happened. I am starting to think A.S.S. is on a wind up; along with many of Labour's core he doesn't recognise that basic point & keeps repeating that Labour hardcore supporters and Momentum back JC; BUT misses completely to comprehend that to win elections they need to reach out and garner the floating, middle of the road voter : which under JC they can not and never will.
And worse they are allowing a very very poor Tory elite to bimble on suffering only minor irritation from their ineffectiveness at Westminster; or in marginal constituencies.

Spot on, I've met ***, I've met Barna...both likeable chaps but blind to the fact that much of the voting electorate do not like or trust Corbyn (and Abbot) and, that while they're in charge, Labour are unelectable.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

[/B]
This is THE point of most of what has happened. I am starting to think A.S.S. is on a wind up; along with many of Labour's core he doesn't recognise that basic point & keeps repeating that Labour hardcore supporters and Momentum back JC; BUT misses completely to comprehend that to win elections they need to reach out and garner the floating, middle of the road voter : which under JC they can not and never will.
And worse they are allowing a very very poor Tory elite to bimble on suffering only minor irritation from their ineffectiveness at Westminster; or in marginal constituencies.

That's just rude and I wouldn't expect that from you.
I engage in this forum in a polite way and explain my opinion fully - in what way is that a wind up?

I can't see the wood for the trees - what have I written that is unreasonable or untrue?

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Spot on, I've met ***, I've met Barna...both likeable chaps but blind to the fact that much of the voting electorate do not like or trust Corbyn (and Abbot) and, that while they're in charge, Labour are unelectable.

when did you last vote Labour? I suspect never. Bielzibubz never. Rigsby pre Blair. Massimo possibly at some point.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but in reality a party is not going to pick a leader based on the opinions of people who don't ever vote for that party. 40% of the population voted for the party under the current leadership and 62% of the 550,000 members voted for that person to be leader of the party.

The leader won't be changed because non Labour voters and the media want them to.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

That's just rude and I wouldn't expect that from you.
I engage in this forum in a polite way and explain my opinion fully - in what way is that a wind up?

I can't see the wood for the trees - what have I written that is unreasonable or untrue?

I am sorry if I have caused offence, it was/is not my intention.
What is unreasonable or untrue? Your belief that JC has much chance of being elected PM; it is as likely Harry has of being the next King. If Labour wants change then this present incarnation of Labour led by JC and backed by Momentum MUST change. Too many floating voters WILL NOT vote for him and his baggage. That, my friend, is the woods/trees analogy.

 

[rigsby]

when did you last vote Labour? I suspect never. Bielzibubz never. Rigsby pre Blair. Massimo possibly at some point.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but in reality a party is not going to pick a leader based on the opinions of people who don't ever vote for that party. 40% of the population voted for the party under the current leadership and 62% of the 550,000 members voted for that person to be leader of the party.

The leader won't be changed because non Labour voters and the media want them to.

I think you mean 40% of those who voted.

What you blindly wont accept is that there are millions of people who will never vote Tory but wont have certain Labour MP's actually running the country.

You claim your respectful to overs on the political threads, yet dismiss any perceived objection to the current Labour regime. Not just to your sworn enemy, anyone who might say one thing you deem remotely right wing but to former or potential Labour voters. .....Your list of names above are the sort of thing Pol Pot might have issued to his death squads.

 

[Bielzibubz]

when did you last vote Labour? I suspect never. Bielzibubz never. Rigsby pre Blair. Massimo possibly at some point.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but in reality a party is not going to pick a leader based on the opinions of people who don't ever vote for that party. 40% of the population voted for the party under the current leadership and 62% of the 550,000 members voted for that person to be leader of the party.

The leader won't be changed because non Labour voters and the media want them to.

Your quite right ***. I've never voted Labour. Then again I've never voted Tory either. From 79 to the present day both me and my family (what's left of them) have all done nicely regardless of who's in power. Under Thatcher I did OK. Under Bliar I did OK. Under Cameron I did OK and I'm doing OK under May. If at some point in the future I start to 'not do OK' and there is a viable alternative that I believe could change that then I'll vote for them. Until then I'm perfectly entitled to have and voice an opinion and that opinion is just as valid as someone that's voted every four years since the age of 18.

Now, I'm off out to enjoy this sunshine. Toodle pip :smile:

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I am sorry if I have caused offence, it was/is not my intention.
What is unreasonable or untrue? Your belief that JC has much chance of being elected PM; it is as likely Harry has of being the next King. If Labour wants change then this present incarnation of Labour led by JC and backed by Momentum MUST change. Too many floating voters WILL NOT vote for him and his baggage. That, my friend, is the woods/trees analogy.

Prince Harry is 6th in line to the throne, Corbyn lead a party that less than a year ago were backed by 40% of voters.


If Labour were on 25% in April 2017 and 40% in June 2017 surely that means floating voters were attracted to Corbyn. No?


I totally get that people who don't like Corbyn assume that no one else likes Corbyn but that is simply not accurate. Yes he divides opinion but post Referendum we are in a politically divided country and that middle ground was worth 8% to the LibDems which is why Labour and Tories are not really fighting for it.


Attacks on Momentum is false logic for those who don't have right wing. The Tories attack Momentum because the battle of volunteers is one they can not win. Tories have the media on their side, Labour have ordinary people as volunteers on their side - so the media attack the volunteers. If you met these people you would see why the Tories and the media attack them - because they are normal people throughout the country getting involved and that reduces that the impact of the media and is a threat to the Tories so needs to be attacked.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Your quite right ***. I've never voted Labour. Then again I've never voted Tory either. From 79 to the present day both me and my family (what's left of them) have all done nicely regardless of who's in power. Under Thatcher I did OK. Under Bliar I did OK. Under Cameron I did OK and I'm doing OK under May. If at some point in the future I start to 'not do OK' and there is a viable alternative that I believe could change that then I'll vote for them. Until then I'm perfectly entitled to have and voice an opinion and that opinion is just as valid as someone that's voted every four years since the age of 18.

Now, I'm off out to enjoy this sunshine. Toodle pip :smile:

totally agree - as we have both said everyone is entitled to their opinion. And as you can tell I'm very willing to discuss those opinions. But when the question is 'why won't Labour change their leader?' one answer is that people that will never vote Labour anyway are not a reason to change the leader.

And I also agree most people do ok whoever is in power. But with this current government there are a lot more people being dragged into the not doing ok statistics.

Enjoy the sun, I'm squinting as I type.

 

[OldBlueLady]

when did you last vote Labour? I suspect never. Bielzibubz never. Rigsby pre Blair. Massimo possibly at some point.

Actually, on Thursday, but you're right, never in a GE.