Mark Ramprakash for England?

[SUFC Forever]

I know he is 38 and has played over 50 Test matches previously but without a doubt Mark Ramprakash is a far better batsman now than when he last played for England 5 or 6 years ago.

He made a century on the 1st day of the season against Lancashire to register his 98th 1st class hundred and will no doubt soon no doubt become the 25th player in the history of the game to register 100 hundreds in a career (WG Grace, Tom Hayward, Sir Jack Hobbs, Phil Mead, Patsy Hendren, Frank Wooley, Herbert Sutcliffe, Ernest Tyldesley, Walter Hammond, Andy Sandham, Sir Don Bradman, Les Ames, Sir Len Hutton, Denis Compton, Tom Graveney, Sir Colin Cowdrey, John Edrich, Geoffrey Boycott, Glenn Turner, Zaheer Abbas, Dennis Amiss, Sir Viv Richards, Graham Gooch and Graeme Hick) all being the others. Immortal company indeed in many of those cases.

Ramps has averaged over 100 for the last two seasons (whilst admittedly playing on superb Oval wickets) yet despite being asked of his availablility for the Winter tours, was not selected.

Now being old enough to remember when being 38 was not something that would bar a player from a recall to Test cricket if he was playing well or was the best available, I have to say that I would love to see Mark Ramprakash play again for England this season as I feel he is probably the best English batsman about at the moment and has refined his technique so well since he was last selected for international cricket that he more than deserves his chance again.

What do others think? Has he had his chance and England should therefore chose younger players of potential above him or would you like to see Ramprakash selected once more to play in the upcoming Test series against both NZ and South Africa?

 

[Phippsy]

Whilst i dont doubt the guys ability and his county record speaks for itself. He had more than enough chances for England but his scoring just wasn't good enough against the highest calibre bowlers. I liked watching Ramps on form in the past, but not for England anymore imho.

 

[canveyshrimper]

That is a good and well argued post, and there is no doubt that Ramprakash is a very fine player indeed, and may possibly be the 25th and last member of the 110, 100's club.

However for whatever reason, rather like Graeme Hick, he was never able to translate his obvious ability & county form onto the International scene, and there is no evidence at 38 that he will be able to do so now. Therefore IMO it would be a retrograde step in going back to him.

Having said that England do have a history of recalling players who have previously been discarded. I remember Colin Cowdrey being called up to face Lillee & Thomson at the age of 42. Brian Close at 45 & John Edrich at 39 against the WIndies in 1976. I also recall a 42 year old Graham Gooch & Mike Gatting at 40(ish) playing a test series in Australia in 1995.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

It would be one thing if he'd previously been a success at test level, but in 52 test matches he scored two hundreds and averaged just 27.

What would be different now, compared to his last 17 re-calls?

I'd rather persevere with Strauss (hit 160 today, has 11 test centuries in six FEWER tests), or go back to Key (has a test double century and at least averages over 30), or go for the youthful promise of Ravi Bopara.

 

[Uncle Leo]

I'll add a poll.

I wouldn't want to see him back in the side. He had many chances at Test level and never quite cut it. By his own admission this was probably due to him being unable to relax and play his natural game in Tests. I can't imagine that side of his mental make-up will have changed sufficiently.

If we are to bring in a 'new' batsman in to the line up, I'd like to see Rob Key given another chance.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Ramps out for a duck today in contrast to Strauss' 163 off 130 on the same pitch (and Bopara's 99 off 87).

 

[SUFC Forever]

No doubt whatsoever that he underachieved YB as you so rightly say.

He undoubtedly has always been a very talented batsmen but for whatever reason, when previously stepping up to the very highest level he has not succeeded at all. The same with Hick, a wonderful player but something seemed missing mentally to succeed at Test level in the same way as Ramprakash. Anybody who scores 100 hundreds has to have a fair amount of ability however and without a doubt, Hick & Ramprakash's failure to establish their places as Test players (when far lesser players have considerably better records) will puzzle historians and lovers of the game for ever more I feel.

I (as stated earlier) feel that Ramprakash deserves another chance. He has been in wonderful form for the last two years and feel is a far better player at this stage of his career now than he has ever been before.

He is still a top fielder (and although 38 is still extremely fit and seemingly has the desire to be picked again) and I feel deserves to play Test cricket again on the strength of all those runs scored. It would not surprise me at all if the selectors still continue to leave him in the wilderness however I feel we are short of truly class players (especially with Trescothick retired from England duty now) and would much rather see Ramprakash back rather than a youngster such as Bopara as I feel he would be a better proposition for runs v South Africa and the best available batsman, regardless of previous form or age.

 

[SUFC Forever]

Ramps out for a duck today in contrast to Strauss' 163 off 130 on the same pitch (and Bopara's 99 off 87).

Okay but a Freinds Provident game is not the place to really compare the two. I like Strauss and feel he is a player who should play v NZ and SA but he has not been in great form over the past couple of seasons (till his century in NZ) and was persevered with when perhaps his scores suggested he be rested before they finally left him out in Sri Lanka.

Just my view but I feel Ramprakash deserves another chance. Whether he will get that chance, time will tell.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Okay but a Freinds Provident game is not the place to really compare the two. I like Strauss and feel he is a player who should play v NZ and SA but he has not been in great form over the past couple of seasons (till his century in NZ) and was persevered with when perhaps his scores suggested he be rested before they finally left him out in Sri Lanka.

Just my view but I feel Ramprakash deserves another chance. Whether he will get that chance, time will tell.

I hate the concept of "deserving a chance" as if it is something you get in return for long service. The criteria has to be who makes the team the strongest, and my strongest England XI does not include Ramps. I'd instead opt for proven, successful test performers, not a 38 year old with big question marks over him at test level.

I'd back both Key and Bopara to make more runs than him at test level, given the numerous chances Ramps has had.

I normally don't put too much weight behind Friend Provident Trophy runs, but the issue with Strauss has been form not class. A ton shows he has the form, and his class hasn't ever really been in question.

 

[SUFC Forever]

I hate the concept of "deserving a chance" as if it is something you get in return for long service. The criteria has to be who makes the team the strongest, and my strongest England XI does not include Ramps. I'd instead opt for proven, successful test performers, not a 38 year old with big question marks over him at test level.

I'd back both Key and Bopara to make more runs than him at test level, given the numerous chances Ramps has had.

I normally don't put too much weight behind Friend Provident Trophy runs, but the issue with Strauss has been form not class. A ton shows he has the form, and his class hasn't ever really been in question.

My concept of deserving a chance is weight of runs in county cricket and Ramprakash has done that. Sidebottom was "given a chance" six years after his last Test and what a great pick that was - purely on the strength of his bowling performances for Notts. Was there really anybody else who thought that Sidebottom would have been recalled all those years later after that one wicketless Test and been such an outstanding success since?

Bopara was abysmal in SL and has to go back to county cricket and force his way back from there on in. Key has a Test double century to his name but has also been found wanting since and has also not played for a while now - I personally feel he is not up to it at that level against better attacks but as with Ramprakash, that is only my view as somebody who watches a fair bit of cricket over the season.

You may well be right YB, if Ramprakash came back and failed again people would then ask why a 38 year old played in front of these people and the selectors slated for calling him in again.

My view as I said is that he is probably the best technical batsman in county cricket and a far better player than when he played for England, who has matured immensely and would now be more likely to succeed than at any other time in his admittedly most disappointing Test match career.

You have your views on Ramps (which I totally appreciate and understand) and I have mine. The following few months will see who is wrong and who is right.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

My concept of deserving a chance is weight of runs in county cricket and Ramprakash has done that. Sidebottom was "given a chance" six years after his last Test and what a great pick that was - purely on the strength of his bowling performances for Notts. Was there really anybody else who thought that Sidebottom would have been recalled all those years later after that one wicketless Test and been such an outstanding success since?

Bopara was abysmal in SL and has to go back to county cricket and force his way back from there on in. Key has a Test double century to his name but has also been found wanting since and has also not played for a while now - I personally feel he is not up to it at that level against better attacks but as with Ramprakash, that is only my view as somebody who watches a fair bit of cricket over the season.

You may well be right YB, if Ramprakash came back and failed again people would then ask why a 38 year old played in front of these people and the selectors slated for calling him in again.

My view as I said is that he is probably the best technical batsman in county cricket and a far better player than when he played for England, who has matured immensely and would now be more likely to succeed than at any other time in his admittedly most disappointing Test match career.

You have your views on Ramps (which I totally appreciate and understand) and I have mine. The following few months will see who is wrong and who is right.

Fair enough, but I'd be surprised if the following few months will see who is right and who is wrong because IMHO we'd only find out if Ramps was playing test cricket, and all the runs he'll score at county cricket won't resolve the questions about him on the biggest stage.

 

[SUFC Forever]

Fair enough, but I'd be surprised if the following few months will see who is right and who is wrong because IMHO we'd only find out if Ramps was playing test cricket, and all the runs he'll score at county cricket won't resolve the questions about him on the biggest stage.

Well YB we won't have to wait that long, following the naming of Peter Moores 26 man squad from whom the England sides will be picked from, announced this morning, sadly (from my point of view anyway) Mark Ramprakash's name is not included so that seems to be the end of the matter.

The squad is as follows -

Tim Ambrose (Warwickshire)
James Anderson* (Lancashire)
Ian Bell* (Warwickshire)
Ravi Bopara (Essex)
Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire)
Michael Carberry (Hampshire)
Paul Collingwood* (Durham)
Alastair Cook* (Essex)
Andrew Flintoff* (Lancashire)
Stephen Harmison* (Durham)
Matthew Hoggard* (Yorkshire)
Robert Key (Kent)
Dimitri Mascarenhas (Hampshire)
Philip Mustard (Durham)
Monty Panesar* (Northamptonshire)
Kevin Pietersen* (Hampshire)
Matthew Prior (Sussex)
Adil Rashid (Yorkshire)
Owais Shah (Middlesex)
Ryan Sidebottom* (Nottinghamshire)
Andrew Strauss* (Middlesex)
Graeme Swann (Nottinghamshire)
James Tredwell (Kent)
Chris Tremlett (Hampshire)
Michael Vaughan* (Yorkshire)
Luke Wright (Sussex)

* Denotes those 12 players currently in receipt of 12-month ECB contracts which run from October 1 2007 to September 30 2008.

You are right when you say that unless he played Test cricket again (and following this squad announcement today that is now extremely unlikely) the questions will never be resolved no matter how many runs he now scores in county cricket for the rest of his career.

The selectors have made their decision and it is now obvious that he is not any longer in their thoughts and that obviously is their perogative. A great pity I feel but they undoubtedly think he had enough chances at international level previously and they now want to move on and that is fair enough I suppose.

 

[SUFC Forever]

http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/england/content/player/19323.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oii94hMC92k

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Well YB we won't have to wait that long, following the naming of Peter Moores 26 man squad from whom the England sides will be picked from, announced this morning, sadly (from my point of view anyway) Mark Ramprakash's name is not included so that seems to be the end of the matter.

The squad is as follows -

Tim Ambrose (Warwickshire)
James Anderson* (Lancashire)
Ian Bell* (Warwickshire)
Ravi Bopara (Essex)
Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire)
Michael Carberry (Hampshire)
Paul Collingwood* (Durham)
Alastair Cook* (Essex)
Andrew Flintoff* (Lancashire)
Stephen Harmison* (Durham)
Matthew Hoggard* (Yorkshire)
Robert Key (Kent)
Dimitri Mascarenhas (Hampshire)
Philip Mustard (Durham)
Monty Panesar* (Northamptonshire)
Kevin Pietersen* (Hampshire)
Matthew Prior (Sussex)
Adil Rashid (Yorkshire)
Owais Shah (Middlesex)
Ryan Sidebottom* (Nottinghamshire)
Andrew Strauss* (Middlesex)
Graeme Swann (Nottinghamshire)
James Tredwell (Kent)
Chris Tremlett (Hampshire)
Michael Vaughan* (Yorkshire)
Luke Wright (Sussex)

* Denotes those 12 players currently in receipt of 12-month ECB contracts which run from October 1 2007 to September 30 2008.

You are right when you say that unless he played Test cricket again (and following this squad announcement today that is now extremely unlikely) the questions will never be resolved no matter how many runs he now scores in county cricket for the rest of his career.

The selectors have made their decision and it is now obvious that he is not any longer in their thoughts and that obviously is their perogative. A great pity I feel but they undoubtedly think he had enough chances at international level previously and they now want to move on and that is fair enough I suppose.

The big losers appear to be Ed Joyce and Michael Yardy, who despite touring with the Lions find their Lions team-mate Carberry leap-frogging them. Carberry's selection appears to be the main story for me and the closest to a surprise call.

Onions can console himself with the thought that at least another fast bowler hasn't overtaken him (although I think Kirby might have jumped above him in the pecking order).

Matt Prior is no doubt relieved to find that he isn't totally out of the reckoning and is in as one of three keepers.

The only other eyebrow raising item is that Stuart Broad has not been given a 6 month central contract. Young fast bowlers were exactly the type of players the central contracts were designed to protect. The fashionable way of thinking is that central contracts have gone too far the other way, and they need to play more, but this could have still been done within the structure of the central contract system. I wonder if this is a financial decision or a policy decision (I wouldn't have thought it was a player evaluation decision).

 

[number11]

What is the actual reason behind naming such a 'squad'?

Its not like they will get together, or the ECB have control over the fringe players. Seems pretty demotivating for those not listed, though if they hit a rich vein of form and leapfrog those named, there there was not much point naming the list in the first place! Surely you can just have the centrally contracted players, and then have informally chats with the fringe players to say they are in the selectors thought etc....

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

What is the actual reason behind naming such a 'squad'?

Its not like they will get together, or the ECB have control over the fringe players. Seems pretty demotivating for those not listed, though if they hit a rich vein of form and leapfrog those named, there there was not much point naming the list in the first place! Surely you can just have the centrally contracted players, and then have informally chats with the fringe players to say they are in the selectors thought etc....

Apparently anyone in that 26 can be withdrawn from county cricket by England coach Peter Moores.

There is also room for a further 4 players to be added.

Quite how this differs from a central contract, I'm not sure, but I expect the financials are different and I expect it is the financials that drive this. Presumably the ECB pay less to a county and an individual if they are in the performance squad rather than have a central contract.

The other angle to consider is the importance of central contracts in the 20:20 era. Mascarenhas wouldn't have been able to go to India if he had had a central contract.

 

[Stats]

Leave Ramps alone & let him continue to smite county attacks to all parts of the country. :support:

 

[Exiled Shrimper]

Back on the Ramprakash subject, unfortunately it is probably a little too late for him to realistically be considered a England candidate. I think if he had experienced this run of form in his early 30s, he could have been recalled (again) - after all, not everyone averages over 100 in first-class cricket for two consecutive seasons. However, at 38, I'd prefer it if the selectors persevered with youth, looking at the likes of Rob Key (admittedly no teenager himself), Ravi Bopara and James Hildreth for the future.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

If form in county cricket is supposed to be an important factor in selection for the Test side, then I do struggle to understand why Ramps doesn't get picked...

:unsure:

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

If form in county cricket is supposed to be an important factor in selection for the Test side, then I do struggle to understand why Ramps doesn't get picked...

:unsure:

An important factor, but far from the only factor.