• Welcome to the ShrimperZone forums.
    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which only gives you limited access.

    Existing Users:.
    Please log-in using your existing username and password. If you have any problems, please see below.

    New Users:
    Join our free community now and gain access to post topics, communicate privately with other members, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and free. Click here to join.

    Fans from other clubs
    We welcome and appreciate supporters from other clubs who wish to engage in sensible discussion. Please feel free to join as above but understand that this is a moderated site and those who cannot play nicely will be quickly removed.

    Assistance Required
    For help with the registration process or accessing your account, please send a note using the Contact us link in the footer, please include your account name. We can then provide you with a new password and verification to get you on the site.

New Charges registered

Indeed, its a primary benefit and financial security for Ron - until he signs over the company with the debts to a new owner, who then inherits the debts with Ron as creditor until those debts are paid. Tax saved etc etc. We’re all agreed what Ron is doing, my point is that it isn’t only a benefit to him to do this if the club goes bust. It’s also a benefit to him if the club (and debts) are transferred to someone else, and I’ve explained why that can work for both parties.

Still, you may all be right and Ron has come this far only to deliberately crash to club into oblivion just to maximise his financial gain - all surreptitiously achieved under the noses of everyone at the club while while they all carry on oblivious of it all until the bailiffs shut Roots Hall on day soon, even as buyers are queueing up at the gates…

I think you will find that the purpose of a charge is ensure that unless the debt is cleared in full any sale can’t take place. Same as if you was selling your house. No negotiation, either you cover the charge against you or you can’t sell your house.

It’s actually interesting that charges have been lodged though, because it means that things are either on the move or RM is covering himself in the event of any future sale which may take place.
 
Yes indeed, there are myriad possible reasons/benefits for the technical charges to finances (deeds, titles etc etc) at a time of takeover negotiations. Your valid point doesn’t mean what I suggested can’t also be the case though - far from it.

We’ll just have to wait and see, and keep everything crossed…

None of us have the genuine inside track on what’s going on so those who are minded to see doom in everything will do, and others of us will see things differently. Just gotta wait for some concrete news one way or the other… utter purgatory ☹️

Sorry miss understood your previous post and had it in my head that the debts would either be repaid to Ron or written off as part of the sale process - but of course the debts could remain under the new owner and so Ron is taking security.
 
The 2019 accounts said we owed £14.2m to group companies. Original post shows around £15m of charges - so either we've only added less than a £1m of debt in almost 4 years, some debt has been written off or not all of the debt has a charge associated with it (yet).
 
I think you will find that the purpose of a charge is ensure that unless the debt is cleared in full any sale can’t take place. Same as if you was selling your house. No negotiation, either you cover the charge against you or you can’t sell your house.

It’s actually interesting that charges have been lodged though, because it means that things are either on the move or RM is covering himself in the event of any future sale which may take place.

Not sure it's the same. The charge is against the club - the club can't sell it's assets without settling it's debts.

SEL leisure can sell it's shares in the club, with the debts, as SEL doesn't have the charge on it. Or Mezcal can sell it's shares in SEL Leisure.
 
General line of thought on here suggests this activity means he's putting in place assurances that the debts will either get repaid to him, or taken on by somebody else.

I've only seen one person on the thread sonfsr point out that RM said he'd write all debts off.

None of this points to that happening.
 
General line of thought on here suggests this activity means he's putting in place assurances that the debts will either get repaid to him, or taken on by somebody else.

I've only seen one person on the thread sonfsr point out that RM said he'd write all debts off.

None of this points to that happening.
He said he’d write the debts off in the context of us having moved into the stadium and him still in charge I think? To the best of my knowledge there was no suggestion that he would write off the debts prior to selling the club, or sell the club but take the debts away with him.

So, it’s fair to say this is a different situation and a new owner might be planned to ‘pay’ for the club by clearing the debts. They would then need to fund the stadium build themselves presumably but we’ll see.

Either way, if a sale happens (one that isn’t tinpot or retains Ron as stadium landlord) then we should be debt free. Unless the Glazers are one of the interested parties….
 
He said he’d write the debts off in the context of us having moved into the stadium and him still in charge I think? To the best of my knowledge there was no suggestion that he would write off the debts prior to selling the club, or sell the club but take the debts away with him.

So, it’s fair to say this is a different situation and a new owner might be planned to ‘pay’ for the club by clearing the debts. They would then need to fund the stadium build themselves presumably but we’ll see.

Either way, if a sale happens (one that isn’t tinpot or retains Ron as stadium landlord) then we should be debt free. Unless the Glazers are one of the interested parties….
Hmmm. That's not what I gathered from what he said in the Zoom meeting with himself, TL and supporters' groups reps a few weeks ago.
 
That he wouldn't call in the debt, he felt it was impossible for him to get back the money he'd put in, and more fool him for doing so.
Selling the club (by transferring debt instead of taking a cash payment) isn’t calling in the debts though, so I’m still not sure I understand your concern. Surely you don’t think he should give away the club, land and new stadium plans etc for nothing?
 
So many scenarios and we are guessing. But this looks to me to be part of structuring for a sale. The sum of the charges seems quite a bit under what the total interco debts would currently be expected to be, as has been said- so maybe a current process. Otherwise why now.

Is the club being sold with an agreed amount of secured debt owed to Ron’s companies at a nominal price e.g. for £1 phase 1, with that debt then being cleared as part of subsequent stadium purchases phase 2 (and 3 if including north stand) at less than “market value”.

If it was all written off now it would create huge write offs within the group companies- is that sustainable? Surely not. In the end the total value is what someone will pay but this way may suit both parties. No doubt there are tax implications for both parties too but not something I know a great deal about.

My piece of speculation at least.
 
Selling the club (by transferring debt instead of taking a cash payment) isn’t calling in the debts though, so I’m still not sure I understand your concern. Surely you don’t think he should give away the club, land and new stadium plans etc for nothing?
No, I don't think that. I expect him to get a fee for his portion of the club's 400,000-odd shares, and then £20m or whatever he has suggested for the 3-sided stadium if the new owner wishes to buy it (and I hope they do). That's the impression I got. Anything else, and my confidence that he will sell disappears. It's one thing for a new owner to pay, for example, £750k-£1m for a loss-making club and then £20m for the stadium at some point......quite another for them to pay another £14m to pay back debts to RM at the same time. I thought he had intelligently dropped that idea because he had realised how unrealistic it is.

With whatever respect might be due to the bloke, much of that debt is paper debt and unclaimed rent. If he wasn't such a **** poor property developer and businessman, and hadn't taken 2 and a half decades to get anywhere near completing his get rich scheme, then he wouldn't have had to take out so many loans to continue funding the club.

So, playing devil's advocate, the debts that have racked up are his own stupid fault and I'm sure he can write them off/pay them back out of the fortune he's going to make and still have an enviable nest egg left over.
 
No, I don't think that. I expect him to get a fee for his portion of the club's 400,000-odd shares, and then £20m or whatever he has suggested for the 3-sided stadium if the new owner wishes to buy it (and I hope they do). That's the impression I got. Anything else, and my confidence that he will sell disappears. It's one thing for a new owner to pay, for example, £750k-£1m for a loss-making club and then £20m for the stadium at some point......quite another for them to pay another £14m to pay back debts to RM at the same time. I thought he had intelligently dropped that idea because he had realised how unrealistic it is.

With whatever respect might be due to the bloke, much of that debt is paper debt and unclaimed rent. If he wasn't such a **** poor property developer and businessman, and hadn't taken 2 and a half decades to get anywhere near completing his get rich scheme, then he wouldn't have had to take out so many loans to continue funding the club.

So, playing devil's advocate, the debts that have racked up are his own stupid fault and I'm sure he can write them off/pay them back out of the fortune he's going to make and still have an enviable nest egg left over.
I think your last sentence is key. He cant just write the loans off now as his group companies couldn't absorb the write off and would go under? So assuming he wants to sell ASAP:

He needs to sell with the debt in place
He needs to sell with the debt in place and an agreement that sees it satisfied through the stadium sale once built (even if in some way netting off).

Hence why he wants/needs the debt secured for sale.
 
Last edited:
Seems to me thing may just be moving ahead, im sure any interested buyer would want to know what debts are to be paid ,20 million for everything that includes FF as well and the development plans for the new stadium etc , i believe we can get a new owner very quickly.
 
Seems to me thing may just be moving ahead, im sure any interested buyer would want to know what debts are to be paid ,20 million for everything that includes FF as well and the development plans for the new stadium etc , i believe we can get a new owner very quickly.
I think the sale would have been much more straightforward if the stadium was built (I am certain that was the original plan).

Selling now creates some challenges in structuring the deal given the stadium build hasn't even started. Payments/acquisition probably needs phasing against project milestones contractually, And the debt handled in such a way that Ron's companies don't take a hit until the balancing revenue streams (e.g. stadium sale) are secured.

TBH the debt situation makes it difficult to imagine someone just being interested in the club being successful unless they are paying off/taking on the bulk of the debt (minimising any write down for Ron's companies). Surely a buyer for club and stadium will be hugely more attractive to him?
 
The 2019 accounts said we owed £14.2m to group companies. Original post shows around £15m of charges - so either we've only added less than a £1m of debt in almost 4 years, some debt has been written off or not all of the debt has a charge associated with it (yet).
It is this piece that makes you wonder if the amount of debt is tailored to a current negotiation- otherwise why not take security on the whole lot as of today which as you say must be more.

BYW if its Nash and he was in talks previously then presumably its not completely a standing start as it were.
 
It is this piece that makes you wonder if the amount of debt is tailored to a current negotiation- otherwise why not take security on the whole lot as of today which as you say must be more.

BYW if its Nash and he was in talks previously then presumably its not completely a standing start as it were.
We have zero clue.
 
The SEL and Mezcal charges were with effect from 24th March.

That’s a week after Ron announced the club was up for sale and Martin Dawn plc ceased to be an entity with significant control.

It seems to be a shuffling of debts around. The £2m bridging loan of 1st March was described as a finance document whereas both of these relate to a Novation and Restatement Agreement with £3,256,166 to SEL under Schedule 2 and £9,675,227 to Mezcal under Schedule 3. This doesn’t look like new debt (like the bridging loan) but rather 12m debt being shifted around. Without knowing who the other parties to that notation were it’s difficult to gauge the reasoning behind it. It would also be interesting to know if the Novation and Restatement Agreement wrote off any debt.
 
Hopefully whoever is interested will have the sense to have lawyers and experts all over it , so as not to be mugged off

I just hope Ron doesnt pitch the price and assets in a way that no one would want to afford it !!
Ive often wondered about the extent to which we have had potential buyers previously but maybe Ron got a little too toppy on the sale price of assets, or didnt want to sell , or the lack of any real clarity in the fog and mist accounts made it impossible for anyone to confidently go ahead, unless mere millions didnt matter much to them
 
Hopefully whoever is interested will have the sense to have lawyers and experts all over it , so as not to be mugged off

I just hope Ron doesnt pitch the price and assets in a way that no one would want to afford it !!
Ive often wondered about the extent to which we have had potential buyers previously but maybe Ron got a little too toppy on the sale price of assets, or didnt want to sell , or the lack of any real clarity in the fog and mist accounts made it impossible for anyone to confidently go ahead, unless mere millions didnt matter much to them
I think the problem, put simply, is selling the club alone, before the stadium is built, and the wider Fossets development is underway, would have been incredibly different other than for a sum that necessitated a significant debt write off that he couldn't cover.
 
Back
Top