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NHS Junior Doctors Industrial Action

RHB

Super Moderator ⭐
Staff member
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Aug 14, 2009
Messages
22,426
Location
Westcliff riviera
It's probably time to open up this particular issue. NHS Junior Doctors are taking industrial action for the first time in 40 years. So, is it ever right for medical staff to take this sort of action?

The BBC took a poll very recently to see what patients' views towards this action were. Two thirds of those polled supported the action provided emergencies were covered.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35288042

I have a natural leaning towards union solidarity and it seems to me mostly that junior doctors are doing this as a last resort against an intransigent Health Minister. There is a nagging doubt though that maybe the BMA were looking for fight as well. What do you think?
 

Pubey

Guest
It's absolutely the right thing to do. Normally I'd get stuck into a thread like this because it's the area I work in and understand a lot about, but unfortunately I'm completely swamped with work today (some of you will be glad to hear).

#notsafenotfair
#tireddoctorsmakemistakes
 
Last edited:

Uncle Leo

This cook is an anti-semite
Joined
Nov 19, 2003
Messages
23,031
Location
NY Parks Dept
but unfortunately I'm completely swamped with work today (some of you will be glad to here).

3oEduTrz5oU71UamR2.gif
 

mrsblue

Banned
Joined
Oct 15, 2012
Messages
9,419
It's probably time to open up this particular issue. NHS Junior Doctors are taking industrial action for the first time in 40 years. So, is it ever right for medical staff to take this sort of action?

The BBC took a poll very recently to see what patients' views towards this action were. Two thirds of those polled supported the action provided emergencies were covered.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35288042

I have a natural leaning towards union solidarity and it seems to me mostly that junior doctors are doing this as a last resort against an intransigent Health Minister. There is a nagging doubt though that maybe the BMA were looking for fight as well. What do you think?


The BMA are Defo looking for trouble IMO.

Should they strike is another question,must admit I don't know their contract details but it all appears very militant to me.
 

MK Shrimper

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 6, 2005
Messages
52,348
The BMA are Defo looking for trouble IMO.

Should they strike is another question,must admit I don't know their contract details but it all appears very militant to me.

Much like the tube drivers, Cameron & co have thought of their grand plan of a 24hr NHS without any extra funding or any thought behind it. Doctors have a higher than average number of suicides due to the stress already put on them, and now Cameron wants to increase the stress.

I support them 100%, but then I would, wouldn't I?
 

Bielzibubz

President
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Messages
4,757
Location
Eastwood, the posh part of Rayleigh..
In all honesty I don't know, nor have I paid enough attention to, the arguments on both sides to have a definitive opinion. I shall keep and eye on this thread but in the meantime I shall avoid putting opinionated fingers to keyboard ;)
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2008
Messages
4,534
For me and you must understand that i am a dunderhead this is like a coal miner striking because they get dirty or a footballer striking because they get tackled,they knew the job before they signed up for the job so will striking change that job well i think not.
 

mrsblue

Banned
Joined
Oct 15, 2012
Messages
9,419
Much like the tube drivers, Cameron & co have thought of their grand plan of a 24hr NHS without any extra funding or any thought behind it. Doctors have a higher than average number of suicides due to the stress already put on them, and now Cameron wants to increase the stress.

I support them 100%, but then I would, wouldn't I?


If it's about money,why not cut or reneg on the 20 plus billion we pay for overseas aid and EU membership?

I thought tube drivers earn around 45k per year?
 

Pubey

Guest
The BMA are Defo looking for trouble IMO.
Show your working, please.

Should they strike is another question,must admit I don't know their contract details but it all appears very militant to me.
If you don't understand the contract details, then how can you pass judgement on whether their strike is justified?

99.6% of junior doctors voted for some action. 98% voted for industrial action. It is crystal clear that a group of highly skilled and intelligent people in this country believe that the proposals are unfair for staff, and dangerous to patients. The only action (never taken before) is to strike - the strike is safe for parents due to consultants covering their workload today (consultants are also completely behind the action).

We trust junior doctors with our lives, day in day out, we should be standing with them over this.

Hunt's proposals are dangerous for patient care, and unfair on staff.
 

rigsby

Life President⭐
Joined
Oct 12, 2014
Messages
14,442
Good luck boys and girls, I support most industrial action including yours. Some of you won't like this but this is what will happen.

The only way you can win a strike is if its costing someone a lot of money (tube drivers) Its the only thing that counts in todays world. Unfortunately for the Doctors like any public sector workers time is on the Governments side.

They will gauge public opinion and a few weeks time in a very coordinated attack along with the press they will easily sway the masses. The striking Doctors will be amazed by some of the reporting by even the broadsheets, who will twist and select partial facts to fool the public.

After its all over the Doctors will be left thinking should I really be sacrificing my life for such an ungrateful British public and our spineless overpaid bosses who never once said a word in our defence. If the Media and politicians can make black look white in a subject we are experts in then maybe we are being easily fooled in every other avenue of life.
 

Pubey

Guest
Good luck boys and girls, I support most industrial action including yours. Some of you won't like this but this is what will happen.

The only way you can win a strike is if its costing someone a lot of money (tube drivers) Its the only thing that counts in todays world. Unfortunately for the Doctors like any public sector workers time is on the Governments side.

They will gauge public opinion and a few weeks time in a very coordinated attack along with the press they will easily sway the masses. The striking Doctors will be amazed by some of the reporting by even the broadsheets, who will twist and select partial facts to fool the public.

After its all over the Doctors will be left thinking should I really be sacrificing my life for such an ungrateful British public and our spineless overpaid bosses who never once said a word in our defence. If the Media and politicians can make black look white in a subject we are experts in then maybe we are being easily fooled in every other avenue of life.

Well said rigsby. The bit in bold is sadly already starting to happen. Many newly qualified doctors are already looking to move overseas, or into related medical professions like pharma or health consulting. I teach and support medics who are looking to move into academic and research posts, and we have record numbers this year (one of the reasons I'm busy today).

It's very easy for medics to move into many professions due to their skillset and we'll see more and more people with medical degrees in the city or teaching etc, because it's not worth the grief. Specialities with antisocial hours (those hit hardest by the new proposals) like A&E, trauma and Obs&Gyne are already feeling this pressure to meet staffing ratios and rotas.

I take exception to 'spineless overpaid bosses' - if you mean NHS bosses, they've already been shafted, and the people left are definitely overworked and underpaid. You try running an NHS trust with turnover up to £1bn, and find a CEO who's happy to get £100,000 or £200,000 pa. That salary is pocket money in the private sector, and a drop in the ocean compared to what they're responsible for.
 

mrsblue

Banned
Joined
Oct 15, 2012
Messages
9,419
Show your working, please.


If you don't understand the contract details, then how can you pass judgement on whether their strike is justified?

99.6% of junior doctors voted for some action. 98% voted for industrial action. It is crystal clear that a group of highly skilled and intelligent people in this country believe that the proposals are unfair for staff, and dangerous to patients. The only action (never taken before) is to strike - the strike is safe for parents due to consultants covering their workload today (consultants are also completely behind the action).

We trust junior doctors with our lives, day in day out, we should be standing with them over this.

Hunt's proposals are dangerous for patient care, and unfair on staff.


what I know,

Docs have been offered an 11% pay rise?????????
Docs are annoyed regarding cuts in unsocial working hours????????

Is that correct ?


Either way as Riggers pointed out the media will have a field day espicially if that media backs the Gov.
 

MK Shrimper

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 6, 2005
Messages
52,348
what I know,

Docs have been offered an 11% pay rise?????????
Docs are annoyed regarding cuts in unsocial working hours????????

Is that correct ?


Either way as Riggers pointed out the media will have a field day espicially if that media backs the Gov.

Next time you're in A&E lets hope you're happy that the doctor who's going to treat you may not have slept for 60hrs. But hey, 11% payrise. Who needs sleep eh? Or a social life. Or time with their family.
 

Pubey

Guest
what I know,

Docs have been offered an 11% pay rise?????????
Docs are annoyed regarding cuts in unsocial working hours????????

Is that correct ?


Either way as Riggers pointed out the media will have a field day espicially if that media backs the Gov.

The contracts and proposals are complex, which is why it's important to know the facts and not just read headline figures in the media - these figures aren't just misleading, they're completely wrong.

The 11% figure is an increase in their basic pay. Junior Drs are currently paid a basic amount (£23,000, which isn't a huge amount). 11% isn't much when you're already paid a little.

Junior Drs supplement this by working antisocial hrs (these are currently night shifts and weekends, specifically, outside 7am-7pm Monday-Friday). These hours aren't optional, you'll be expected to work these hours. Currently they are paid a premium for these antisocial hours worked. In total and on average, a new 'junior doctor' will earn less than £40k, which again isn't a huge pay packet for someone who's had to fork out for 5+ years uni fees, has ongoing registration and training fees (not sure off the top of my head but are a couple of thousand), and probably has to run a car etc.

Hunt is proposing to change what hours are classed as antisocial (He thinks only outside of 7-10pm Monday to Saturday is antisocial). Most people would agree that 9pm is an antisocial time to be working, and so is Saturday. Think of it this way, if you can't get childcare to cover your working hours, then it's probably antisocial!

So suddenly doctors won't get as many 'premium hours' and their total pay is very likely to go down (offset any 11% increase in the basic). Ironically, it's actually quite hard to accurately model the impact for doctors about this (which means that the government is just guessing about the impact this will have), but most think (by getting doctors to model their own individual salary) that the majority of doctors will lose out, and in some specialities up to 30% of the total salary.

There are lots of other things that are completely ****ed up about this as well, but that's for another tea break...
 

southendkid

Director⭐
Joined
Aug 8, 2010
Messages
4,817
For me and you must understand that i am a dunderhead this is like a coal miner striking because they get dirty or a footballer striking because they get tackled,they knew the job before they signed up for the job so will striking change that job well i think not.

What? Doctors are being told that they have to work Saturdays and until 10 with no overtime pay for the trouble, that isn't what they signed up for at all.

Even worse Hunt is deliberately playing a game of smoke and mirrors to make it look like he's the good guy, as others have said the 11% pay rise is a con because overtime is basically being done away with, so almost all doctors will end up with a pay cut. He's also repeatedly claimed that what he's doing is right becuase more people die in the NHS on a weekend. If you read the report he's quoting from though it explicitly says that there is no evidence the reason this happens is due to lack of staff.
 

Pubey

Guest
What? Doctors are being told that they have to work Saturdays and until 10 with no overtime pay for the trouble, that isn't what they signed up for at all.

Even worse Hunt is deliberately playing a game of smoke and mirrors to make it look like he's the good guy, as others have said the 11% pay rise is a con because overtime is basically being done away with, so almost all doctors will end up with a pay cut. He's also repeatedly claimed that what he's doing is right becuase more people die in the NHS on a weekend. If you read the report he's quoting from though it explicitly says that there is no evidence the reason this happens is due to lack of staff.

Indeed, this is a huge myth. The reason why 'more people die in the NHS on a weekend' is because hospitals will only admit sick people at the weekend. People aren't regularly admitted for routine elective care/surgery etc. So when you look at the stats it shows that people admitted at the weekend are more likely to die than those admitted in the week, but that's because they are less well to begin with compared to those admitted in the week.

Sadly Jeremy Hunt is a complete idiot and can't seem to understand that simple concept, even when 50,000 doctors, and numerous academics try to spell it out for him.

A fully 24/7 NHS (e.g. routine elective and outpatient services and GP care throughout the week) has been evaluated by independent academics and found to not be cost-effective (e.g. the benefit it brings is at too high of a price), that money can be used for better things elsewhere in the NHS.
 

londonblue

Topgun Pilot
Joined
Feb 18, 2004
Messages
16,268
The contracts and proposals are complex, which is why it's important to know the facts and not just read headline figures in the media - these figures aren't just misleading, they're completely wrong.

The 11% figure is an increase in their basic pay. Junior Drs are currently paid a basic amount (£23,000, which isn't a huge amount). 11% isn't much when you're already paid a little.

Junior Drs supplement this by working antisocial hrs (these are currently night shifts and weekends, specifically, outside 7am-7pm Monday-Friday). These hours aren't optional, you'll be expected to work these hours. Currently they are paid a premium for these antisocial hours worked. In total and on average, a new 'junior doctor' will earn less than £40k, which again isn't a huge pay packet for someone who's had to fork out for 5+ years uni fees, has ongoing registration and training fees (not sure off the top of my head but are a couple of thousand), and probably has to run a car etc.

Hunt is proposing to change what hours are classed as antisocial (He thinks only outside of 7-10pm Monday to Saturday is antisocial). Most people would agree that 9pm is an antisocial time to be working, and so is Saturday. Think of it this way, if you can't get childcare to cover your working hours, then it's probably antisocial!

So suddenly doctors won't get as many 'premium hours' and their total pay is very likely to go down (offset any 11% increase in the basic). Ironically, it's actually quite hard to accurately model the impact for doctors about this (which means that the government is just guessing about the impact this will have), but most think (by getting doctors to model their own individual salary) that the majority of doctors will lose out, and in some specialities up to 30% of the total salary.

There are lots of other things that are completely ****ed up about this as well, but that's for another tea break...

Indeed, this is a huge myth. The reason why 'more people die in the NHS on a weekend' is because hospitals will only admit sick people at the weekend. People aren't regularly admitted for routine elective care/surgery etc. So when you look at the stats it shows that people admitted at the weekend are more likely to die than those admitted in the week, but that's because they are less well to begin with compared to those admitted in the week.

Sadly Jeremy Hunt is a complete idiot and can't seem to understand that simple concept, even when 50,000 doctors, and numerous academics try to spell it out for him.

A fully 24/7 NHS (e.g. routine elective and outpatient services and GP care throughout the week) has been evaluated by independent academics and found to not be cost-effective (e.g. the benefit it brings is at too high of a price), that money can be used for better things elsewhere in the NHS.

Wow, you must be thirsty!
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2008
Messages
4,534
What? Doctors are being told that they have to work Saturdays and until 10 with no overtime pay for the trouble, that isn't what they signed up for at all.

Even worse Hunt is deliberately playing a game of smoke and mirrors to make it look like he's the good guy, as others have said the 11% pay rise is a con because overtime is basically being done away with, so almost all doctors will end up with a pay cut. He's also repeatedly claimed that what he's doing is right becuase more people die in the NHS on a weekend. If you read the report he's quoting from though it explicitly says that there is no evidence the reason this happens is due to lack of staff.

Yes what,
They knew how ***** it was before they got in.
 

Pubey

Guest
Yes what,
They knew how ***** it was before they got in.

That's bollocks Tony and you know it. Doctors know they are going to have to work long and hard hours. They don't expect to start a job and then have their contract torn up and receive a 30% pay cut (on top of the real decrease in their salary over the past few years). They also don't expect to see the safeguards to protect patients to be taken away - this isn't just about pay, it's about making sure patients are protected from doctors who are over worked and over tired. Taking away safeguards mean that hospitals are free to have doctors working stupid hours (for less pay), and that's when mistakes can be made, and medical mistakes can be serious.
 
Joined
Aug 11, 2008
Messages
6,800
Location
Oregon
The doctors should just come to the US after Trump repeals Obamacare. Socialized medicine clearly doesn't work for the patients or the medicos. I met a charming lady doctor in a Washington hospital who had come to the US from Nigeria via South London, and she agreed with me that the NHS and the NICE death panels were a festering heap of ****.
 
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