Phil Browns 2 year anniversary

[Yorkshire Blue]

- have we moved forward as a club under brown NO
- have we achieved what you expected under brown? YES, BUT ONLY BECAUSE I HAD NO FAITH IN BROWN
- would you want brown to continue as manager following this season? :stunned: THE MERE THOUGHT LEAVES ME COLD

sorry I hit the wrong button
Has he improved the squad with Bolger no
but with piggot yes
should he stay for another season
Thats a hard one to call
But maybe yes because chopping and changing wont help .

If you're including loanees you've got to compare Pigott to Assambalonga and whilst I like Pigott there's only one winner there.

The key players in the team are still mostly Luggys signings- Corr, Timlin, Leonard, Prosser. Only Coker really of his permanent signings stands out as someone who you would be dying to keep at the club, maybe Worrall too.

True, but I'd be disappointed to lose Worrall. Coker's good but so was Clohessy.

 

[Feathers]

The key players in the team are still mostly Luggys signings- Corr, Timlin, Leonard, Prosser. Only Coker really of his permanent signings stands out as someone who you would be dying to keep at the club, maybe Worrall too.

Therin lays part of the problem. They are all solid players but we failed to gain promotion with them under Sturrock, why should that change under Brown?

In Sturrock's 2nd season we also had the likes of Ryan Hall and Kane Ferdinand (plus Moshni). After they left we had a centre midfield for the following season of Timlin, Laird, Spicer and Woodyard. We have let Conor Clifford go out on loan but I am pretty sure most people (possibly even Yorkshire Blue) would have him ahead of Sipcer or Woodyard.

Out wide we had Martin plus Hurst. Leonard was rarely a first choice under Sturrock and when he did play it was generally on the right.

Under Brown we have a deeper squad, certainly in midfield and possibly defence. However we do not have a Ryan Hall style player that can produce something out of nothing. We also have limited options up front.

We therfore have a good solid team, demonstrated by our position throughout most of the season in the play-offs but lack one or two players with that bit extra to gain a top three spot.

The question is do you take that solid base (management and team) forward with a view to adding the final pieces of the jigsaw or knock it all down and rebuild from ground up. And if you do take the latter option and rebuild with a new team what happens if you do not achieve promotion within 2 years, knock down, rebuild, knock down, rebuild...

 

[rlb999]

We should not have sacked Sturrock because the thing wasn't broken. For that reason we shouldn't sack Brown either. We see Real Madrid behaving as they do, and get ideas above our station.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Therin lays part of the problem. They are all solid players but we failed to gain promotion with them under Sturrock, why should that change under Brown?

1. Hopefully floodlights don't fail with us 1-0 up against 10 men
2. Better luck with injuries
3. No embargo preventing us from reinforcing squad

We got 83 points and missed out on promotion by a point (we had the better goal difference) when the floodlights failed. The next season we got to Wembley in the JPT knocking out several league one clubs but had an injury nightmare when we were on course for automatic promotion.

In Sturrock's 2nd season we also had the likes of Ryan Hall and Kane Ferdinand (plus Moshni). After they left we had a centre midfield for the following season of Timlin, Laird, Spicer and Woodyard. We have let Conor Clifford go out on loan but I am pretty sure most people (possibly even Yorkshire Blue) would have him ahead of Sipcer or Woodyard.

LOL certainly ahead of Woodyard and probably ahead of Spicer.

Out wide we had Martin plus Hurst. Leonard was rarely a first choice under Sturrock and when he did play it was generally on the right.

Under Brown we have a deeper squad, certainly in midfield and possibly defence. However we do not have a Ryan Hall style player that can produce something out of nothing. We also have limited options up front.

We therfore have a good solid team, demonstrated by our position throughout most of the season in the play-offs but lack one or two players with that bit extra to gain a top three spot.

The question is do you take that solid base (management and team) forward with a view to adding the final pieces of the jigsaw or knock it all down and rebuild from ground up. And if you do take the latter option and rebuild with a new team what happens if you do not achieve promotion within 2 years, knock down, rebuild, knock down, rebuild...

I think it's a case of better using the resources we have.

Corr, Worrall, Timlin etc have all spent time unnecessarily on the bench this season. How often has Corr been lacking support? Why did we have White at left-back and Thompson at right-back denying us width for so long? Even if we had a Ryan Hall type player, do you think Brown would trust them, give them licence to attack?

And at the moment we aren't building a team every 2 years because Brown temporarily assembles sides which were always going to be unsustainable because of his use of the loan system to build rather than patch up a squad - Egan and Sokolik at centre-back and before that Kiernan; Coulthirst up front the start of this season; Pigott and Cassidy up front. I don't mind signing Binnom-Williams (except he's crap) as injury cover for Coker, I don't mind the signing on loan last year of Thompson for depth which turned into a permanent move but I do mind building a team through the loan market. It's not sustainable.

The fact that our core (no pun intended) is still the Sturrock core is a reflection on all the failed Brown signings - Bolger, Bennett, Ibenfeldt, Clifford, Atkinson, O'Toole, Deegan, Reid, Weston, Cowan, Barnard, Coulthirst, Layne, Brown etc who have failed (at least so far) to become integral parts of the line-up ahead of the Sturrock signings.

 

[onceknownasrab]

Have we gone backwards - well I think we have stagnated.

Have we gone forwards - same answer and for me a disappointment.

Has PB reached my expectation - probably if in terms of my expectation from early this season - not going up. Hope I am wrong but I seriously doubt we have the nous to win the play-off's or at least PB doesn't.

Would I keep PB if we went up - I would rather he went now. I know some say clubs would laugh at us for sacking a bloke whilst in the play-off's but they would not if the new broom got us up and I would rather they laughed than suffer more of this turgid regime.

 

[Sandbach Shrimper]

In Sturrock's 2nd season we also had the likes of Ryan Hall and Kane Ferdinand (plus Moshni). After they left we had a centre midfield for the following season of Timlin, Laird, Spicer and Woodyard. We have let Conor Clifford go out on loan but I am pretty sure most people (possibly even Yorkshire Blue) would have him ahead of Sipcer or Woodyard.

Out wide we had Martin plus Hurst. Leonard was rarely a first choice under Sturrock and when he did play it was generally on the right.

Under Brown we have a deeper squad, certainly in midfield and possibly defence. However we do not have a Ryan Hall style player that can produce something out of nothing. We also have limited options up front.

We therfore have a good solid team, demonstrated by our position throughout most of the season in the play-offs but lack one or two players with that bit extra to gain a top three spot.

I think it's a fair argument that we have a bigger squad with better depth under Brown but under Sturrock we had more 'matchwinners'. Particularly in that 11/12 season when we were so close to promotion, we had the likes of Hall, Moshni and Grant who were capable of taking games by the scruff of the neck. We also had a lot of experience with players like Barker and Harris whereas this season we've had a pretty young squad. Then the following season we had a strikeforce of Assombalonga and Tomlin, probably the best strike partnership we've had at the club in a long time.

We've had a better goalkeeper and defence under Brown and he deserves credit for bringing through more youngsters than Sturrock did, but his attacking signings have been largely disappointing and we've had a lot of different loan signings. Another difference is that under Sturrock we scored a lot of goals from corners and set-pieces, which can be the difference at this level. Under Brown we've barely scored any.

If we don't go up this year which I don't think we will then Brown should go. He will have had 2 years to get us promoted with better resources and a bigger squad than Sturrock had, and failed.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

I think it's a fair argument that we have a bigger squad with better depth under Brown but under Sturrock we had more 'matchwinners'. Particularly in that 11/12 season when we were so close to promotion, we had the likes of Hall, Moshni and Grant who were capable of taking games by the scruff of the neck. We also had a lot of experience with players like Barker and Harris whereas this season we've had a pretty young squad. Then the following season we had a strikeforce of Assombalonga and Tomlin, probably the best strike partnership we've had at the club in a long time.

We've had a better goalkeeper and defence under Brown and he deserves credit for bringing through more youngsters than Sturrock did, but his attacking signings have been largely disappointing and we've had a lot of different loan signings. Another difference is that under Sturrock we scored a lot of goals from corners and set-pieces, which can be the difference at this level. Under Brown we've barely scored any.

If we don't go up this year which I don't think we will then Brown should go. He will have had 2 years to get us promoted with better resources and a bigger squad than Sturrock had, and failed.

Eh?

Do you mean signing other club's youngsters on loan?

Sturrock brought through:

Ferdinand, Hall, Mohsni, Bentley, Leonard, Prosser etc who all turned into first team regulars and assets for us and at least four of which have attracted bids.

Brown developed Bentley and Leonard who were already part of the first team squad he inherited, the only two he's introduced are really Thompson and Payne (plus Ted Smith has 4 appearances as well).

 

[Feathers]

1. Hopefully floodlights don't fail with us 1-0 up against 10 men
2. Better luck with injuries
3. No embargo preventing us from reinforcing squad

We got 83 points and missed out on promotion by a point (we had the better goal difference) when the floodlights failed. The next season we got to Wembley in the JPT knocking out several league one clubs but had an injury nightmare when we were on course for automatic promotion.



LOL certainly ahead of Woodyard and probably ahead of Spicer.



I think it's a case of better using the resources we have.

Corr, Worrall, Timlin etc have all spent time unnecessarily on the bench this season. How often has Corr been lacking support? Why did we have White at left-back and Thompson at right-back denying us width for so long? Even if we had a Ryan Hall type player, do you think Brown would trust them, give them licence to attack?

And at the moment we aren't building a team every 2 years because Brown temporarily assembles sides which were always going to be unsustainable because of his use of the loan system to build rather than patch up a squad - Egan and Sokolik at centre-back and before that Kiernan; Coulthirst up front the start of this season; Pigott and Cassidy up front. I don't mind signing Binnom-Williams (except he's crap) as injury cover for Coker, I don't mind the signing on loan last year of Thompson for depth which turned into a permanent move but I do mind building a team through the loan market. It's not sustainable.

The fact that our core (no pun intended) is still the Sturrock core is a reflection on all the failed Brown signings - Bolger, Bennett, Ibenfeldt, Clifford, Atkinson, O'Toole, Deegan, Reid, Weston, Cowan, Barnard, Coulthirst, Layne, Brown etc who have failed (at least so far) to become integral parts of the line-up ahead of the Sturrock signings.

We were certainly unlucky not to get promotion in Sturrocks 2nd season although as gmeas against Portsmouth, Oxford and most recently Burton prove leading against 10 men does not guarantee victory. The game was also replayed, we had the opportunity, we lost.

My point was that the team the following season was poorer and we had no depth, particulalry in midfield. Had we had that depth we would not have had to rely on the likes of Woodyard to cover for injuries.

All managers make poor signings and some of those you list were short term (O'Toole, Cowan) and others like Layne, Brown and Ibenfedlt were always a gamble. Sturrock took similar gambles with Liptak and Flood with similar reuslts.

Loanees like Coulthirst are also something of a gamble and Sturrock also signed a number of young forwards such as Antonio German with similar, if not worse, results. The notable exception of course is Assombolonga but we was no more building for the future than Coulthirst.

I have not counted up the loanees per season over both Paul Sturrock's and Phil Brown's reigns but I suspect they are very similar. Don't forget it was a loanee who scored our last minute goal that got us to Wembley.

Would Brown play a Ryan Hall type player? I don't know. He certainly seems to be looking for someone to play that role - last year Anthony Straker (a Sturrock signing), this year Weston - they have both had plenty of pitch time (too much perhaps?) so the evidence would suggest that if they were good enough they would play.

Our defence (mainly Brown players) and midfield (combination of Sturrock/Brown) are both solid if unexciting and will more or less deliver a top 8 finish. Where Brown has failed is with our strikers. Corr does a good job and I believe he still has a role to play at the club but past evidence under both Sturrock and Brown show that we are unlikley to achieve promotion with him as our main striker.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

We were certainly unlucky not to get promotion in Sturrocks 2nd season although as gmeas against Portsmouth, Oxford and most recently Burton prove leading against 10 men does not guarantee victory. The game was also replayed, we had the opportunity, we lost.

My point was that the team the following season was poorer and we had no depth, particulalry in midfield. Had we had that depth we would not have had to rely on the likes of Woodyard to cover for injuries.

All managers make poor signings and some of those you list were short term (O'Toole, Cowan) and others like Layne, Brown and Ibenfedlt were always a gamble. Sturrock took similar gambles with Liptak and Flood with similar reuslts.

Loanees like Coulthirst are also something of a gamble and Sturrock also signed a number of young forwards such as Antonio German with similar, if not worse, results. The notable exception of course is Assombolonga but we was no more building for the future than Coulthirst.

I have not counted up the loanees per season over both Paul Sturrock's and Phil Brown's reigns but I suspect they are very similar. Don't forget it was a loanee who scored our last minute goal that got us to Wembley.

Would Brown play a Ryan Hall type player? I don't know. He certainly seems to be looking for someone to play that role - last year Anthony Straker (a Sturrock signing), this year Weston - they have both had plenty of pitch time (too much perhaps?) so the evidence would suggest that if they were good enough they would play.

Our defence (mainly Brown players) and midfield (combination of Sturrock/Brown) are both solid if unexciting and will more or less deliver a top 8 finish. Where Brown has failed is with our strikers. Corr does a good job and I believe he still has a role to play at the club but past evidence under both Sturrock and Brown show that we are unlikley to achieve promotion with him as our main striker.

Sure Sturrock made some bad signings, but the difference is that he also made good signings and who knows what financial difficulty we might have been in if we hadn't been able to sell players like Hall and Cresswell who he signed for nothing and sold for a very tidy profit?

Which of Brown's signings are going to earn us transfer fees?

Coker's a good player but we saw with Clohessy there's no market for full-backs.

Sturrock's loan-signings were generally as extra depth or to cover for injury. eg Assombalonga was signed on an initial month's loan when Corr was out injured, which was later extended to Christmas (Corr was coming back from a year out and wasn't fit enough to start a game until December) and only then to the end of the season. Players like Nathaniel Jarvis and Waide Fairhurst- they were added depth and didn't go straight into the team if our first choice players were fit and available.

But Brown has tried to build sides around loanees rather than plug them into gaps. Building around loanees means you are building in gaps when they leave. It doesn't allow any continuity, it doesn't allow you to build things. It's two steps forward, two steps back. Having two on-loan central-defenders or two centre-forwards as your first choice pairing is crazy. Coulthirst wasn't signed as injury cover but as Plan A. It was a short term signing with no long-term upside - and no short-term upside as it turned out either. Why on earth was Binnom-Williams playing out of position at centre-half ahead of better centre-halfs who were under contract to us?

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Sure Sturrock made some bad signings, but the difference is that he also made good signings and who knows what financial difficulty we might have been in if we hadn't been able to sell players like Hall and Cresswell if we hadn't been able to sell players like Hall and Cresswell who he signed for nothing and sold for a very tidy profit?

Which of Brown's signings are going to earn us transfer fees?

Coker's a good player but we saw with Clohessy there's no market for full-backs.

Sturrock's loan-signings were generally as extra depth or to cover for injury. eg Assombalonga was signed on an initial month's loan when Corr was out injured, which was later extended to Christmas (Corr was coming back from a year out and wasn't fit enough to start a game until December) and only then to the end of the season. Players like Nathaniel Jarvis and Waide Fairhurst- they were added depth and didn't go straight into the team if our first choice players were fit and available.

But Brown has tried to build sides around loanees rather than plug them into gaps. Building around loanees means you are building in gaps when they leave. It doesn't allow any continuity, it doesn't allow you to build things. It's two steps forward, two steps back. Having two on-loan central-defenders or two centre-forwards as your first choice pairing is crazy. Coulthirst wasn't signed as injury cover but as Plan A. It was a short term signing with no long-term upside - and no short-term upside as it turned out either. Why on earth was Binnom-Williams playing out of position at centre-half ahead of better centre-halfs who were under contract to us?

Didn't we also bring in a bit of money from Luggy getting us to the JPT Final? Not withstanding, that in my view the JPT campaign had a serious down side that season and may have cost us promotion.

 

[Bolton Shrimper]

1. No
2. Yes
3. Yes

 

[AndyT]

1. No
2. Yes
3. Yes

Were these last Saturday's substitutions?

 

[united we stand]

Ron has stated that the target is promotion. I think everyone on here wants promotion (and seeing as get little excitement at a home match it's hardly a entertainment vs points question). Therefore to those that would keep Phim for another year if we don't go up, what do you see changing next year that will result in promotion. This year Phil appears to have been as financially backed as he is going to be. There is no reason to believe next year will be better. There have been no cup runs getting in the way. From an injurjuries perspective it feels 'normal'. There is nothing bad going on in the background that we are aware of (players being paid,no players with court appearances, no moshni saga).

My view is that this year things have gone our way, so if we don't go up again I just don't see why we would the following year.

I want to be wrong. I want three brilliant play off games where we play brilliantly and win and are proud for others to see the way we play on TV. But I just don't see it

 

[Mick]

1. No
2. Yes
3. Yes

So we haven't progressed under him, but you want him to stay ? Perverse, I'd say.