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Planning Update

Tommy2holes

Life President⭐
Joined
Jan 21, 2007
Messages
8,696
Mods.

I know that this thread is in the right place in terms of its nature etc, but given the fact that this is quite simply one of the biggest and most important decisions in SUFC's history, should this particular thread be moved to the main forum?

@Cockle43

Can I just ask. What is your personal gut feeling in how this will pan out?
 

Cockle43

Manager⭐
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
1,195
Location
(Was) Back home on the North Bank now back in W.
Mods.

I know that this thread is in the right place in terms of its nature etc, but given the fact that this is quite simply one of the biggest and most important decisions in SUFC's history, should this particular thread be moved to the main forum?

@Cockle43

Can I just ask. What is your personal gut feeling in how this will pan out?
I feel that the smoke will be white but as I've said earlier you can never presume to second guess Development Control Committees. Things sometimes come to light that change things dramatically during the course of a meeting.

I don't sit on DCC and I have not spoken to any of the Councillors who do about these applications; that could be construed as me trying to influence them and if they did speak to me about them and they gave any indication which way they are swaying that could lead to accusations of pre-determination and undue influence. Therefore it is better, for both parties, to not even start the conversation.

A Councillor is allowed to be predisposed to an application but must weigh everything with fair balance and reach a reasoned decision which may be different to their predisposition.
Predetermination is where a Councillor has stated beforehand or there is a reasonable expectation to assume which way they will definitely be voting.
It is for that reason that I would not discuss the applications with any of them beforehand as that would be unfair if they were to say anything that could be misconstrued and put them and me in an awkward position. In important matters like this it is crucial that we are seen to be squeaky clean and to risk problems is not fair on anyone. For the same reason I will not make statements on here which could indicate which way I would be likely to vote so that could not be used to try and sway anyone else although I am sure my view would not sway anyone.

The reason that season ticket holders and regular attenders can not take any part in the decision making process stems from an application made at a Premiership club for works at their ground where season ticket holding Councillors at that club took part in the decision, a legal challenge was made and the fact that they were season ticket holders was deemed to be not in order as they could be assumed to be in favour of any application the club made and were therefore predetermined. I haven't examined that judgement in detail but I understand the judge was quite scathing in his comments as to how it could ever have been considered otherwise. Following that ruling the assumption is made that anyone in that position here is also predetermined in favour of the club, whether they are or not.
 

MattE

Manager⭐
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
2,728
I feel that the smoke will be white but as I've said earlier you can never presume to second guess Development Control Committees. Things sometimes come to light that change things dramatically during the course of a meeting.

I don't sit on DCC and I have not spoken to any of the Councillors who do about these applications; that could be construed as me trying to influence them and if they did speak to me about them and they gave any indication which way they are swaying that could lead to accusations of pre-determination and undue influence. Therefore it is better, for both parties, to not even start the conversation.

A Councillor is allowed to be predisposed to an application but must weigh everything with fair balance and reach a reasoned decision which may be different to their predisposition.
Predetermination is where a Councillor has stated beforehand or there is a reasonable expectation to assume which way they will definitely be voting.
It is for that reason that I would not discuss the applications with any of them beforehand as that would be unfair if they were to say anything that could be misconstrued and put them and me in an awkward position. In important matters like this it is crucial that we are seen to be squeaky clean and to risk problems is not fair on anyone. For the same reason I will not make statements on here which could indicate which way I would be likely to vote so that could not be used to try and sway anyone else although I am sure my view would not sway anyone.

The reason that season ticket holders and regular attenders can not take any part in the decision making process stems from an application made at a Premiership club for works at their ground where season ticket holding Councillors at that club took part in the decision, a legal challenge was made and the fact that they were season ticket holders was deemed to be not in order as they could be assumed to be in favour of any application the club made and were therefore predetermined. I haven't examined that judgement in detail but I understand the judge was quite scathing in his comments as to how it could ever have been considered otherwise. Following that ruling the assumption is made that anyone in that position here is also predetermined in favour of the club, whether they are or not.

Out of interest - if someone was say a Tesco Clubcard holder - could they vote on a Tesco planning application?
 

MattE

Manager⭐
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
2,728
Think it’s just a membership scheme but could well be wrong
I think Tesco term it a loyalty card. But I don't see much difference in that and someone who isn't a season ticket holder but attends Roots Hall regularly.

Ultimately a season ticket holder is 'just' a customer of the football club - it's just that we call them supporters.
 
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flangejackrabbit

Reclusive rabbit
Joined
May 28, 2014
Messages
1,783
Am I the only one who thinks all councillors should be season ticket holders or at least consider themselves fans. After all they purport to be doing all they can for the town and that should include the towns sports teams.
Well that wouldn't be any good as from what we've seen above they wouldn't be able to vote on any applications concerning the club at all. Guaranteed stasis.
 

londonblue

Topgun Pilot
Joined
Feb 18, 2004
Messages
16,359
I think Tesco term it a loyalty card. But I don't see much difference in that and someone who isn't a season ticket holder but attends Roots Hall regularly.

Ultimately a season ticket holder is 'just' a customer of the football club - it's just that we call them supporters.

I suspect the answer might be around the number of outlets Tesco have compared to SUFC. If Tesco don't get planning permission for a new store your clubcard is still usable in all their other stores, including the one you're currently using. SUFC only have one place of business.
 

shrimper61

Schoolboy⭐
Joined
Aug 23, 2010
Messages
212
Location
Westcliff on Sea
This will be quite lengthy. It's being broadcast online and outside the civic centre.

Massive day for the club and for the town as well
Isnt that what was said at the last meeting back in Nov last year.
That meeting got us all excited that things were moving forward and then nothing until now.

Really hope that this is the final meeting that gets the ball rolling. fingers crossed..
 

MattE

Manager⭐
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
2,728
Isnt that what was said at the last meeting back in Nov last year.
That meeting got us all excited that things were moving forward and then nothing until now.

Really hope that this is the final meeting that gets the ball rolling. fingers crossed..
That was the financing meeting - I believe that then released some funds for us, that paid off HMRC and removed the umbongo. So it was a very important meeting/decision that enabled us to move forward - now we move onto the next one, the planning permission
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2007
Messages
2,355
Location
leigh on sea
This meeting is the big one. The last was about the principal of going with the idea of housing and the deal with the council. They also dealt with Victory Sport's Ground and Jones's Memorial Ground as trustees and the slight alterations needed on both to facilitate the scheme.
The 25th is the Development Control Committee that deals with all planning applications. If they say yes then Ron has to get on with it. If it goes to the Secretary of State then he will need to approve it but is unlikely to if the council approve it because of the housing. Here's hoping, fingers crossed etc etc
 

Bexley Blue

My butt's for sitting, not for kissing⭐
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
5,458
Location
Bexleyheath, Greater London
This meeting is the big one. The last was about the principal of going with the idea of housing and the deal with the council. They also dealt with Victory Sport's Ground and Jones's Memorial Ground as trustees and the slight alterations needed on both to facilitate the scheme.
The 25th is the Development Control Committee that deals with all planning applications. If they say yes then Ron has to get on with it. If it goes to the Secretary of State then he will need to approve it but is unlikely to if the council approve it because of the housing. Here's hoping, fingers crossed etc etc
My only issue is Gove’s recent murmurings since becoming SOS for Housing and Communities that whilst he knows housing is needed, he wants to protect green belt land and for brownfield sites to be used more for housing going forward. There is green belt land incorporated into the Fossett’s plans which makes me worried that he’ll call it in, but who knows?
 
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