• Welcome to the ShrimperZone forums.
    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which only gives you limited access.

    Existing Users:.
    Please log-in using your existing username and password. If you have any problems, please see below.

    New Users:
    Join our free community now and gain access to post topics, communicate privately with other members, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and free. Click here to join.

    Fans from other clubs
    We welcome and appreciate supporters from other clubs who wish to engage in sensible discussion. Please feel free to join as above but understand that this is a moderated site and those who cannot play nicely will be quickly removed.

    Assistance Required
    For help with the registration process or accessing your account, please send a note using the Contact us link in the footer, please include your account name. We can then provide you with a new password and verification to get you on the site.

Regional growth fund

applelover

Coach
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
605
After months of the coalition doing their best to eliminate any chance of economic growth they have finally announced a policy that suggests that they haven't entirely forgotten the meaning of the term 'econmic growth'.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/oct/31/nick-clegg-investment-new-jobs?newsfeed=true

All we need now is for them to realise that the fund should be increased a hundred fold and we might actually get Britain working again.

We need to subsidise business to guarantee 100% employment and put this country back where it belongs.
 

Yorkshire Blue

Super Moderator⭐
Staff member
Joined
Oct 27, 2003
Messages
36,127
Location
London
After months of the coalition doing their best to eliminate any chance of economic growth they have finally announced a policy that suggests that they haven't entirely forgotten the meaning of the term 'econmic growth'.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/oct/31/nick-clegg-investment-new-jobs?newsfeed=true

All we need now is for them to realise that the fund should be increased a hundred fold and we might actually get Britain working again.

We need to subsidise business to guarantee 100% employment and put this country back where it belongs.

They can't have been doing a very good job of that!
 
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Messages
22,733
Location
Canvey Island
After months of the coalition doing their best to eliminate any chance of economic growth they have finally announced a policy that suggests that they haven't entirely forgotten the meaning of the term 'econmic growth'.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/oct/31/nick-clegg-investment-new-jobs?newsfeed=true

All we need now is for them to realise that the fund should be increased a hundred fold and we might actually get Britain working again.

We need to subsidise business to guarantee 100% employment and put this country back where it belongs.

100% employment when has this country ever achieved that target? It's a pipe dream.
 

applelover

Coach
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
605
I presume this is a joke?

Where is the £95bn going to come from?

This in an article from the mail that was published in 2007 regarding the real cost of unemployment.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-426074/The-REAL-cost-unemployment-61-billion-year.html

So there's £61 billiion for starters if we guaranteed 100% employment. Its funny how we can borrow 1 trillion to prop up the banks, spend £20.34billion (up until 2010 on the iraq and afgan wars) and yet can't find the money to support the private sector to solve the issue of unemployment.

100 % employment is only a pipe dream in our current economic system. Political and economic thought in the UK still revolves around a futile argument between two defunct ideologies (liberal capitalism and socialism). This argument may have had relevance 25 years ago but doesn't anymore.

I'm certainly not arguing for socialism, i'm asking whether its about time that the UK break the mould and show the dynamism and innovation that put us on the map in the first place?
 

steveo

mine to stay the same please
Joined
Aug 30, 2005
Messages
7,545
I presume this is a joke?

Where is the £95bn going to come from?

They could find the top earners in the Country who already pay more tax than anyone, and tax them even more. That should do it - hang on - Appleover has already stated he doesnt agree with paying tax. How about asking the former residents of Dale Farm t chip in?
 

Hotman

reason, honour, integrity
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
5,611
Location
Not here
This in an article from the mail that was published in 2007 regarding the real cost of unemployment.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-426074/The-REAL-cost-unemployment-61-billion-year.html

So there's £61 billiion for starters if we guaranteed 100% employment. Its funny how we can borrow 1 trillion to prop up the banks, spend £20.34billion (up until 2010 on the iraq and afgan wars) and yet can't find the money to support the private sector to solve the issue of unemployment.

100 % employment is only a pipe dream in our current economic system. Political and economic thought in the UK still revolves around a futile argument between two defunct ideologies (liberal capitalism and socialism). This argument may have had relevance 25 years ago but doesn't anymore.

I'm certainly not arguing for socialism, i'm asking whether its about time that the UK break the mould and show the dynamism and innovation that put us on the map in the first place?
you haven't got a scooby mate. As someone who is in the public sector, it's not about growth fund bollocks - the kind of thing needed is reducing planning restrictions, just one example of how businesses are stifled. For much smaller businesses, how about a tapered rate of VAT for those who hit the registration threshold, to stop them trading just below because of the impact when they register? Many practical methods that would work better than a pot of cash that has to be applied for.
 

applelover

Coach
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
605
It always amazes me how conservative people in this country are. In using the word conservative I am referring to supporters of all the major parties not just to supporters of the conservative party. The UK has been in steady decline since the end of the 19th century, the financial services industry and the eurozone are in meltdown and yet someone on here suggests that if we sort out vat and planning permission then things will be ok. Classic:)

We need to change the rules of the game we're playing whilst we're strong enough to do so and get away with it. I see that we have two choices (s) stay as we are and melt away into insignificance (b) implement radical change that both increase production, lowers the costs of production to allow our businesses to compete and utilises and develops the skills of everyone in society.
 

MK Shrimper

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 6, 2005
Messages
52,348
Sorry Apple, I'm hardly conservative but even I can see that we'll never get 100% (or anywhere near it) employment, unless those in the third world who make our consumer tat for peanuts, get anything like the same standard of living as we do over here and lets face it, that is never going to happen.

The world will soon be in the grip of China. I suggest we all start learning Mandarin.
 

steveo

mine to stay the same please
Joined
Aug 30, 2005
Messages
7,545
(b) implement radical change that both increase production, lowers the costs of production to allow our businesses to compete and utilises and develops the skills of everyone in society.

But for this to happen would mean people making sacrifices which they are apparently not prepared to do. Looking forward to the November 30th Strikes?
 

Hotman

reason, honour, integrity
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
5,611
Location
Not here
It always amazes me how conservative people in this country are. In using the word conservative I am referring to supporters of all the major parties not just to supporters of the conservative party. The UK has been in steady decline since the end of the 19th century, the financial services industry and the eurozone are in meltdown and yet someone on here suggests that if we sort out vat and planning permission then things will be ok. Classic:)

We need to change the rules of the game we're playing whilst we're strong enough to do so and get away with it. I see that we have two choices (s) stay as we are and melt away into insignificance (b) implement radical change that both increase production, lowers the costs of production to allow our businesses to compete and utilises and develops the skills of everyone in society.
If you don't mind me asking, what experience of the real world have you got, that would put you in a position to comment on what can help businesses, and in turn the economy, grow?

To be fair to the coalition they've done a fair amount to stimulate business growth. Reduction in corp tax is a welcome bonus for me, cutting the main rate by a few percentage gives us extra cash to reinvest in marketing, to help our continued growth. But having a cheque written out to poor businesses doesn't help anyone, except a short term reprieve for current employees and creditors. Multiplying the fund "100 x" would be a short term cash boost to poor businesses. Give a man a fish.....

Deregulation will help all businesses for now and the future, as would improving the education system to help kids understand basic business issues (unlike current business studies, which is completely irrelevant in the real world).
 

steveo

mine to stay the same please
Joined
Aug 30, 2005
Messages
7,545
as would improving the education system to help kids understand basic business issues (unlike current business studies, which is completely irrelevant in the real world).

Very valid point. Basic economics should dictate that if you cant afford something don't buy it but too many individuals and Companies, and Countries have been ignoring this simple fact for too long.
 

Cricko

Zone Owner ⭐
Staff member
Joined
Oct 25, 2006
Messages
31,861
Location
Leigh-On-Sea
Very valid point. Basic economics should dictate that if you cant afford something don't buy it but too many individuals and Companies, and Countries have been ignoring this simple fact for too long.

That always was the case before some bright spark invented credit cards and interest free purchases...The general public were dictated by the media/TV and press alike that this was the way forward.I remember many years ago pre-approved credit card applications used to drop through the letter box more regularly than the free papers.Of course it is down to yourself to take control of your own finances, but it wasn't until the world finance collapse that the true measure of consumer debt became apparent.Mortgages were easy to get,Northern Rock and Kensington were well known for bending the rules to get people to sign up and you cannot blame people for wanting to own their own homes as that was also something the government pushed people towards..You cant just blame everything on the public when this has very much been a two way street.
 

Neil_F

Coach
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
848
Location
Islington
So there's £61 billiion for starters if we guaranteed 100% employment.

Two points: there is a difference between a budget and cash. If you want to have a £100bn investment then you need £100bn in cash to do it. By all means budget the NPV as positive factoring reduced welfare costs, increased tax revenues from growth etc, but you still need the £100bn cash! No one would lend it to us (except at huge cost that would probably push the NPV negative) or we would have to print money. That would be an inflationary disaster.

Point two is it is impossible to guarantee 100% employment. The two main reasons for this are that much of our unemployment is structural and the second that we live in a deregulated international labour market. From 1997 to 2009, some 2.5m additional people were employed in the UK. Of that increase, some 95% of the increase were non-UK nationals. In other words, immigrant labour was required to fill vacancies because unemployment was largely structural. There is a whole study on this that is worth looking at.

Second, why not look at the biggest infastructure project currently taking place in the UK: The Olympic Park. The estimates I have found put immigrant labour on the project at 30% of the workforce. Only 2% of the workforce are residents of Hackney.

I'm certainly not arguing for socialism, i'm asking whether its about time that the UK break the mould and show the dynamism and innovation that put us on the map in the first place?

By doing what? You are suggesting a capital investment project. History is littered with the useless products of such policies (Japan is a prime example) because governments are terrible at allocating capital. They simply don't have the skill, information or incentive structures to optimise capital llocation. Whilst growth might get a short-term moderate boost, it will ultimately be a poor use of money (that we don't have and can't get) that won't add a thing to GDP.
 

Yorkshire Blue

Super Moderator⭐
Staff member
Joined
Oct 27, 2003
Messages
36,127
Location
London
It always amazes me how conservative people in this country are. In using the word conservative I am referring to supporters of all the major parties not just to supporters of the conservative party. The UK has been in steady decline since the end of the 19th century, the financial services industry and the eurozone are in meltdown and yet someone on here suggests that if we sort out vat and planning permission then things will be ok. Classic:)

We need to change the rules of the game we're playing whilst we're strong enough to do so and get away with it. I see that we have two choices (s) stay as we are and melt away into insignificance (b) implement radical change that both increase production, lowers the costs of production to allow our businesses to compete and utilises and develops the skills of everyone in society.

WTF?

The UK economy has more or less continually grown since the 19th Century and has grown substantially. What changes is the rate of that growth.

The supposed decline only exists in the sense that it is RELATIVE to other countries who have been growing quicker than we have been growing. Why is it that socialists just can't understand this basic concept? It is not a zero-sum game.

I'm better off than my parents were, who were better off than their parents, who were better off than their parents all the way back to the end of the 19th century.

If the UK has been in steady RELATIVE decline since the end of the 19th century this will be because we stopped conquering the rest of the world and are no longer trying to run it to our advantage at the expense of the locals. Far from it being conservative, I'd consider that quite a progressive step. Maybe you are suggesting we should reverse this policy?


That always was the case before some bright spark invented credit cards and interest free purchases...The general public were dictated by the media/TV and press alike that this was the way forward.I remember many years ago pre-approved credit card applications used to drop through the letter box more regularly than the free papers.Of course it is down to yourself to take control of your own finances, but it wasn't until the world finance collapse that the true measure of consumer debt became apparent.Mortgages were easy to get,Northern Rock and Kensington were well known for bending the rules to get people to sign up and you cannot blame people for wanting to own their own homes as that was also something the government pushed people towards..You cant just blame everything on the public when this has very much been a two way street.

Why can't people take responsibility for their actions?

Why do we have to have our hands held the entire time?

Why is it the bank or government's fault if I do something without thinking of the consequences?
 

MK Shrimper

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 6, 2005
Messages
52,348
Why can't people take responsibility for their actions?

Why do we have to have our hands held the entire time?

Why is it the bank or government's fault if I do something without thinking of the consequences?

Agreed, but advertising, marketing, image, and the media is incredibly pernicious, especially when it's heavily targetted at kids and teenagers. A (sort of) family relative is has a very tight income, but it doesn't stop her teenage daughters causing absolute merry hell if they don't get bought "named" brand clothes rather than the far cheaper non-brand option.
 

osymandus

Life President
Joined
Jan 20, 2007
Messages
5,352
Location
Here there everywhere
Why can't people take responsibility for their actions?

Why do we have to have our hands held the entire time?

Why is it the bank or government's fault if I do something without thinking of the consequences?

Points 1 and 3 are related here , the individuals who run certain schemes and idea's did so from their own responsibility , very few so far have taken the consequences of theses actions.

A point on the decline is as you state it is artificial , however social conditioning over those intervening years tells us we fail unless we make profit continuously , also sometimes without consequence of the action (unless the goal is achieved), so teh only checks that have been in place are the people who in theory self regulating (that worked well didn't it)

Also as MK points out were not having our hands held , what we are having is reins been (all but invisible ) attached to us for our continued involvement in society , our current one we live in . However those who are regarded as responsibly and running it seem to lack their own checks and maturity to govern their own self interest .
 

steveo

mine to stay the same please
Joined
Aug 30, 2005
Messages
7,545
Also as MK points out were not having our hands held , what we are having is reins been (all but invisible ) attached to us for our continued involvement in society , our current one we live in . However those who are regarded as responsibly and running it seem to lack their own checks and maturity to govern their own self interest .
So at what stage do you stop holding someone’s hand and expect them to work out that if they want something that costs a tenner but they only have a fiver, they can’t afford it?
 
Top