Russian Roulette

[CocklesShrimps&Whiteweed]

I've been thinking for quite some time about posting this and realise from the off that it may be dangerous for my health. But with [some] good cheer flying around the place I figure this is as good a time as any to get my head torn off.
I'd also like to say that I don't pretend to be any sort of expert on what's gone on at Roots Hall over the past couple of years. I'm hoping that the likes of 'Beefy' and others will help me out here. But I, as does everyone else on here, have a vested and deep rooted love for the club and only want to see it thrive. Hell...... when my son was born in 2005 I thought he would never have to witness The Shrimpers in the basement league of English football. Such was the high of the club/stadium plans at the time............anything seemed possible. I was very wrong.

What I have been trying to fathom in what passes as my brain, is whether good old Ron Martin is to blame. I know, I know....just hear me out. We all know the arguments about management fee's/25,000 seater stadiums/Eastwood money(yawn) so I'm not going to bother with them. However, is the man only guilty of trying to bring about a dream that has stood for over 25 years? I have a programme at home from a Littlewoods cup tie between us and Derby I believe. On the back of that program is a full page advert for our new stadium. It was obvious in the mid 1980's that the club was leaking money and we needed to move. Roots Hall just wasn't/just isn't a viable option and if we didn't/don't move then we will eventually die.

Whilst this summer has caused a lot of heartache and worry (although things, on the field at least, are starting to look up) my main question is this: If we had never heard of Ron Martin. If there had never been any new stadium plans. No title winning side. No Cardiff trips...... and plenty of onions. How long would the club have left anyway? Would it survive for 5 maybe 10 more years?

We all want a new stadium don't we? We all want The Shrimpers to be the next Blackpool/Reading/Hull? We all want the club to live......it won't do that at Roots Hall. Ron Martin has bought things to a head. It could go either way. The bullet's in the chamber............spin the barrel.

 

[J]

No, Max. He's guilty of bringing a near end to this club, several times. What type of proper businessman tried to **** the government? We are yet to win a case against them.

 

[CocklesShrimps&Whiteweed]

No, Max. He's guilty of bringing a near end to this club, several times. What type of proper businessman tried to **** the government? We are yet to win a case against them.

Agreed to a certain extent........ but my main point is this: Would the club eventually of died in the near future anyway? Regardless of stadium plans.

 

[J]

Agreed to a certain extent........ but my main point is this: Would the club eventually of died in the near future anyway? Regardless of stadium plans.

Not if it was managed properly

People don't die in hospital if they're treated properly.

 

[shrimperman]

No, Max. He's guilty of bringing a near end to this club, several times. What type of proper businessman tried to **** the government? We are yet to win a case against them.

Yet surely we are yet to lose a case against them?

 

[J]

Yet surely we are yet to lose a case against them?

Erm, please check your records - we have debated over payments a few times now.

 

[CocklesShrimps&Whiteweed]

Agreed to a certain extent........ but my main point is this: Would the club eventually of died in the near future anyway? Regardless of stadium plans.

Not if it was managed properly

People don't die in hospital if they're treated properly.

Okay.... we would live. Granted. But we would possibly do no more than bump around the top half of league two, bottom half of league one for however much longer those two divisions exist. There's an argument to say that if the club were managed properly we would have dropped out the league in 2004. What grates on me is when some supporters ask the club to spend £300 odd k on a player like Theo Robinson. If the the club were managed properly that simply could never have been an option (if indeed it ever was). No, we need the other revenue streams the new stadium would bring. I'm not Pro-Ron James as you know....... but he has got us the closest. He has also got us on a precipice of oblivion. I understand that.

 

[A Century United]

Not if it was managed properly

People don't die in hospital if they're treated properly.

Can't agree, J. People are dying all the time in hospital even with state-of-the art treatment. SUFC have had a deadly cancer for far too long. C,S&W's post is spot on. Without a new stadium at some point SUFC are doomed regardless of who is running the club, ecxcluding rich sugar daddies happy to pump in tons of cash. Yes, Ron has made some horrible balls-ups but nevertheless, we couldn't survive without moving.

In my opinion. And I think the accounts from long before Ron took over bear that out.

 

[J]

Can't agree, J. People are dying all the time in hospital even with state-of-the art treatment. SUFC have had a deadly cancer for far too long. C,S&W's post is spot on. Without a new stadium at some point SUFC are doomed regardless of who is running the club, ecxcluding rich sugar daddies happy to pump in tons of cash. Yes, Ron has made some horrible balls-ups but nevertheless, we couldn't survive without moving.

In my opinion. And I think the accounts from long before Ron took over bear that out.

Im not disagreeing about the stadium. But short term immediate treatment is needed - and this has been lacking, severely!!

If you cut yourself, do you whack a plaster on? To stop an infection..

*Ps: I watched Holby tonight.

 

[Beefy]

Not if it was managed properly

People don't die in hospital if they're treated properly.

People die in hospital every day who are being treated properly. If a condition is terminal then all treatment can do is sooth the pain and prolong the life a little longer.

Max, I think the damage was done in the mid-90s. The losses incurred then, and the decision not to clear them through Administration but instead to sell the ground and clear the debts that way, was the biggest mistake this Club could ever make. At that point we lost the ability to decide a future for ourselves. We were a Club with no assets and effectively were at the disposal of whoever happened to buy us.

There's a lot of very valid reasons why we need to move. A new stadium with a bigger capacity can attract more fans. Other developments (shops, hotel, casino) can bring in more income (let's not open the can of worms about whether or not they would) which means more money to be spent on better player which gets us up the league and brings more fans in. But the main reason why we need to move is because our ground is on prime retail land, right in the middle of one of the biggest towns in one of the most affluent areas of the country. We don't own Roots Hall and I don't see any circumstance in which we will own it again in the future (although I'd love to be proven wrong). And whether it's Ron Martin in charge or anyone else their primary motivation is always going to be reaching that pot of gold.

 

[Hotman]

Can't agree, J. People are dying all the time in hospital even with state-of-the art treatment. SUFC have had a deadly cancer for far too long. C,S&W's post is spot on. Without a new stadium at some point SUFC are doomed regardless of who is running the club, ecxcluding rich sugar daddies happy to pump in tons of cash. Yes, Ron has made some horrible balls-ups but nevertheless, we couldn't survive without moving.

In my opinion. And I think the accounts from long before Ron took over bear that out.

The accounts pre-Ron had the ground classified as an asset, and no players on modern Championship wages. And the players were paid.

 

[Hotman]

Not if it was managed properly

People don't die in hospital if they're treated properly.

Correct. The club could have survived, and continued to survive, if managed properly on a sound financial footing. Might not have had the exciting last few seasons, but we'd have relative certainty that the club would exist this time next month.

 

[CocklesShrimps&Whiteweed]

Correct. The club could have survived, and continued to survive, if managed properly on a sound financial footing. Might not have had the exciting last few seasons, but we'd have relative certainty that the club would exist this time next month.

And this time in 5 years?

 

[Jam_Man]

Correct. The club could have survived, and continued to survive, if managed properly on a sound financial footing. Might not have had the exciting last few seasons, but we'd have relative certainty that the club would exist this time next month.

People wouldnt have accepted that though.

If Ron Martin had said, we will never pay more than £1000 a week, never spend more than £50,000 on a player our supporters would have gone ballistic.

Only the other day someone was complaining that Ron Martin hadnt splashed the cash on Theo Robinson in January.

How many times has the phrase "wheres the warchest" been used the past few seasons?

People want their cake and eat it. Which is a stupid phrase, of course if you have a cake you want to eat it. Pah.

 

[Beefy]

Correct. The club could have survived, and continued to survive, if managed properly on a sound financial footing. Might not have had the exciting last few seasons, but we'd have relative certainty that the club would exist this time next month.

Serious question... do you think had Lincoln won that Playoff Final and we'd dropped back into midtable in this division the next season, that we'd be here in this pickle now? I can't make my mind up about it. Ron Martin would still have been hit hard by the recession but the football club was pretty much self-sufficient back then.

 

[CocklesShrimps&Whiteweed]

Correct. The club could have survived, and continued to survive, if managed properly on a sound financial footing. Might not have had the exciting last few seasons, but we'd have relative certainty that the club would exist this time next month.

Serious question... do you think had Lincoln won that Playoff Final and we'd dropped back into midtable in this division the next season, that we'd be here in this pickle now? I can't make my mind up about it. Ron Martin would still have been hit hard by the recession but the football club was pretty much self-sufficient back then.

An interesting thought. Southend fans have never been content with league two football. We would have pushed for more funding/promotion/better players.............better football. Therefore landing RM in an impossible position anyway. I think Jam Man has already said this in the above post. It seems to me that it's Move and risk going bust or stay put and er.....go bust.

 

[palexander]

Serious question... do you think had Lincoln won that Playoff Final and we'd dropped back into midtable in this division the next season, that we'd be here in this pickle now? I can't make my mind up about it. Ron Martin would still have been hit hard by the recession but the football club was pretty much self-sufficient back then.

In all honesty, I'd say probably not.

The wages and contracts during the CCC and fallout season are what has put us in this ****. If we hadnt have won that match, who knows what... mid table lg2 next season... tilson sacked...

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Serious question... do you think had Lincoln won that Playoff Final and we'd dropped back into midtable in this division the next season, that we'd be here in this pickle now? I can't make my mind up about it. Ron Martin would still have been hit hard by the recession but the football club was pretty much self-sufficient back then.

If we hadn't have won against Lincoln in the play-offs, we'd have been 4th division champions the following season, I'm certain of that.

The question is then would have still won back-to-back promotions, and I'm less sure about this.

I think if we had, we'd have been slightly better placed, but the jump from 4th division to 2nd is huge.

 

[Ailsa Road Shrimper]

Max, I think the damage was done in the mid-90s. The losses incurred then, and the decision not to clear them through Administration but instead to sell the ground and clear the debts that way, was the biggest mistake this Club could ever make. At that point we lost the ability to decide a future for ourselves. We were a Club with no assets and effectively were at the disposal of whoever happened to buy us.

I think the debts accumulated in the mid 90's were a used as a convenient excuse for Martin Dawn to get their hands on Roots Hall. The stadium was sold in March 1999 barely six months after Martin Dawn became the majority shareholders of Southend United. They bought the stadium for £4m, conveniently clearing debts which were roughly £3.8m and leaving the club with little in return. Furthermore, rent of £400k a year was to be charged for every year the club remained at Roots Hall, effectively crippling it and forcing it to leave. This was a terrible deal for the club, carried out deliberately by the new owners (Ron Martin, John Main & Co) in the property developer;s best interests and not the club's. Could they not have seeked administration, which in those days didn't warrant the points deduction it does now? Or sold the ground for a higher price which it was probably worth at the time? Decisions such as these would be taken in the club's best interests, however from day one it seemed obvious that our current owners wanted to develop on Roots Hall and make themselves a large profit, instead of acting in Southend United's best interests.

It puzzles me why there is so much antagonism towards the consortium yet under the current regime in the last 12 years we've lost our stadium, suffered numerous years of lies and cover ups, court cases, lost a great management team and treated players disgracefully.

 

[Mick]

It puzzles me why there is so much antagonism towards the consortium yet under the current regime in the last 12 years we've lost our stadium, suffered numerous years of lies and cover ups, court cases, lost a great management team and treated players disgracefully.

It puzzles me, too.