Pre-Match Thread Scunthorpe United vs Southend Utd

[Member]

John White is still out

https://twitter.com/x/status/1105124440793366529

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

I've gone

..........................................Bishop
...........................White... Moore... Lennon
Bwomono...Yearwood..Dieng.. Mantom Demetriou
........................................Cox.... Ba

Subs Smith, Kiernan, Hart, Hyam, Hutchinson, McLaughlin, Kelman


I will be the only person who has gone with that line-up in several aspects.

Kiernan and Hyam are on the bench because I suspect they aren't ready to play a second 90 minutes in 4 days. I've already penciled them in to start Saturday.

I've opted for Ba up front because I think we lack pace. I want someone who plays on the shoulder of the last defender and can get behind them. I also want someone who has the pace to close down and force mistakes. He's not the prospect Kelman is but from the little I've seen of him I think he's a better scheme fit for this type of match at this stage in Kelman's career. There will also be an element of surprise and Scunthorpe won't have prepared for him. For our out ball I want us to put balls in behind Scunthorpe and turn their defence. Let's get them facing towards their goal and be breathing down their necks rather than asking Cox to beat them in the air. I want Cox as our second striker, not leading the line.

Demetriou on the left is a no-brainer for me, but nobody else seems to be contemplating it. He is right-footed but the first part of his career he played almost exclusively on the left. He's comfortable there and an upgrade over Hart. Everyone wants to drop Elvis because he gets caught too far forward, at the same time as castigating Powell for his negative tactics. In a 3-5-2/5-3-2 it is critical that the wing-back can provide width. Nobody in this squad provides a better wide outlet (and by this I mean get forward and be open out wide) than Elvis. That can help stretch Scunthorpe's defence in order to provide space for others to exploit.

I'm assuming White is fit to return. If not can Hart play left-sided centre-back? This is where we miss Kyprianou and Hendrie who have both played that role this season. I'd be reluctant to switch defensive formations to a 4 at the back with so little training time between matches.

 

[Evening Echo]

NEW dad Stephen McLaughlin will be back in the Southend United squad for tomorrow's trip to Scunthorpe United.

More...

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

It's up to the players and management to make the difference. Posts on this board have no effect. Not being negative but truthful.

That's a statement of the blindingly obvious if I've ever heard one-not that's it's ever stopped anyone having their say on here.

 

[northlincsshrimper1]

While everyone appears to be a little pessimistic, the Scunthorpe supporters are even less sure of their own team. Speaking often to my near neighbours, who are season tickets holders, they have less confidence in Scunthorpe . According to them, they cannot defend, they cannot score and are playing poorly. Ring any bells? I have offered to give them our usual two/three goal start but even that does not raise their spirits. On that basis it will be a boring score draw or maybe not! It is about time Lady Luck shone on us.

 

[mfurok]

While everyone appears to be a little pessimistic, the Scunthorpe supporters are even less sure of their own team. Speaking often to my near neighbours, who are season tickets holders, they have less confidence in Scunthorpe . According to them, they cannot defend, they cannot score and are playing poorly. Ring any bells? I have offered to give them our usual two/three goal start but even that does not raise their spirits. On that basis it will be a boring score draw or maybe not! It is about time Lady Luck shone on us.

Please show this to SCP in case we go one up.

 

[Fairport]

Presuming we start with Kiernan and Lennon then this much needed extra height is a big plus for us at both ends of the pitch, something we have been missing nearly all season. The downside is our lack of firepower, no Hopper, no Humphreys and very few goals from our midfield. Hopefully we can nick a one nil win as we should be much more solid at the back.

 

[Clarky176]

Kiernan and Lennon can’t last this game too, neither can Hyam

 

[Clarky176]

My team:
Bishop
Demetriou Moore Turner Lennon Hart
Mantom Dieng Dru
Cox Kelman

Replace Lennon with Kiernan after 60 mins, replace JD with Elvis after 75, then use the other sub tactically

 

[Clarky176]

My team:
Bishop
Demetriou Moore Turner Lennon Hart
Mantom Dieng Dru
Cox Kelman

Replace Lennon with Kiernan after 60 mins, replace JD with Elvis after 75, then use the other sub tactically

 

[Ricey]

John White is still out

https://twitter.com/x/status/1105124440793366529

Can’t see him getting in the squad if Lennon, Kiernan, Moore and Turner are all fit.

 

[Chrisb]

My team:
Bishop
Demetriou Moore Turner Lennon Hart
Mantom Dieng Dru
Cox Kelman

Replace Lennon with Kiernan after 60 mins, replace JD with Elvis after 75, then use the other sub tactically

I don't think that using subs tactically is something that we often do.

 

[Exiled Shrimper]

...I've opted for Ba up front because I think we lack pace. I want someone who plays on the shoulder of the last defender and can get behind them. I also want someone who has the pace to close down and force mistakes. He's not the prospect Kelman is but from the little I've seen of him I think he's a better scheme fit for this type of match at this stage in Kelman's career. There will also be an element of surprise and Scunthorpe won't have prepared for him. For our out ball I want us to put balls in behind Scunthorpe and turn their defence. Let's get them facing towards their goal and be breathing down their necks rather than asking Cox to beat them in the air. I want Cox as our second striker, not leading the line...

Really interesting, and accurate, analysis here. I've seen a fair amount of Ba in the U23s, and he would fit that description of a forward playing on the shoulder of the last defender with pace. He has the potential to be able to stretch a side; in the Essex Senior Cup win at Harlow Town earlier in the season it was Ba's introduction at half-time that Kevin Maher identified as the key moment: “I think Ama helped coming on; he stretches the game and he was a little bit unlucky not to start, along with Eren. When he came on he stretched the game and created room for other players; all his hard work created space for Norman and for Harry Phillips and for Isaac and that helped."

What probably counts against Ba is his form (he has only scored one goal for the U23s this season, compared to 13 for Wabo in competitive matches, 8 for Isaac Hutchinson from an attacking midfield role and even 3 in 4 games for Kelman). He didn't really threaten to score at Forest Green Rovers last week, even though his hard work helped to create the mistake that Wabo capitalised upon to score the first goal.

I think instead we're more likely to see Harry Bunn perform in that role alongside Cox if Powell decides to make a change up front.

 

[Grapevine]

Really interesting, and accurate, analysis here. I've seen a fair amount of Ba in the U23s, and he would fit that description of a forward playing on the shoulder of the last defender with pace. He has the potential to be able to stretch a side; in the Essex Senior Cup win at Harlow Town earlier in the season it was Ba's introduction at half-time that Kevin Maher identified as the key moment: “I think Ama helped coming on; he stretches the game and he was a little bit unlucky not to start, along with Eren. When he came on he stretched the game and created room for other players; all his hard work created space for Norman and for Harry Phillips and for Isaac and that helped."

What probably counts against Ba is his form (he has only scored one goal for the U23s this season, compared to 13 for Wabo in competitive matches, 8 for Isaac Hutchinson from an attacking midfield role and even 3 in 4 games for Kelman). He didn't really threaten to score at Forest Green Rovers last week, even though his hard work helped to create the mistake that Wabo capitalised upon to score the first goal.

I think instead we're more likely to see Harry Bunn perform in that role alongside Cox if Powell decides to make a change up front.

Did you see the 23s game last week at FGR? It just seems along way to have gone to watch the 23s!!

I watched the Harlow game and would definitely agree with the fact it was Ba’s introduction that helped change the game....however Hutchinson moved to the right and Phillips to the left and they went from 1 up from to 442....that was the real key.

In the following round though it was actually taking Klass off that changed the game...Ba and Wabo were already up front...but they gave Hutchinson more freedom from a 442 to go and create by bringing on Zak Pianim

Ba hasn’t scored enough goals for me at that level but I do like him. The 23s is so hit and miss with fixtures and added midweek games that are “friendlies” they have only played about 8/9 league games....so in total Wabo leads the way with 18 goals and Hutchinson has 17...so 1 or 2 goals from Ba isn’t enough.....for me Wabo has earned his right to stake a claim for a start way ahead of Charlie Kelman who should have a consistent run at 23s football and it’s learning curve rather than skip the education it provides.

CP said about how Dru had 50 first team games under his belt with barely an appearance for the 23s whilst when he’d been the same age he’d played 150 reserve games.....I personally think that has contributed to Drus inability to find his way out of a sticky spell....he simply has no football education to fall back on and lean on in times of trouble.

Charlie Kelman will go the same way if the club aren’t careful because in my humble opinion apart from a freak goal he has looked like a fish out of water in first team minutes, none more so than Saturday when Blackpool away was a tough ask for senior pros let alone a kid from the youth team.

 

[Exiled Shrimper]

Did you see the 23s game last week at FGR? It just seems along way to have gone to watch the 23s!!

I watched the Harlow game and would definitely agree with the fact it was Ba’s introduction that helped change the game....however Hutchinson moved to the right and Phillips to the left and they went from 1 up from to 442....that was the real key.

In the following round though it was actually taking Klass off that changed the game...Ba and Wabo were already up front...but they gave Hutchinson more freedom from a 442 to go and create by bringing on Zak Pianim

Ba hasn’t scored enough goals for me at that level but I do like him. The 23s is so hit and miss with fixtures and added midweek games that are “friendlies” they have only played about 8/9 league games....so in total Wabo leads the way with 18 goals and Hutchinson has 17...so 1 or 2 goals from Ba isn’t enough.....for me Wabo has earned his right to stake a claim for a start way ahead of Charlie Kelman who should have a consistent run at 23s football and it’s learning curve rather than skip the education it provides.

CP said about how Dru had 50 first team games under his belt with barely an appearance for the 23s whilst when he’d been the same age he’d played 150 reserve games.....I personally think that has contributed to Drus inability to find his way out of a sticky spell....he simply has no football education to fall back on and lean on in times of trouble.

Charlie Kelman will go the same way if the club aren’t careful because in my humble opinion apart from a freak goal he has looked like a fish out of water in first team minutes, none more so than Saturday when Blackpool away was a tough ask for senior pros let alone a kid from the youth team.

I did go to Forest Green; it is a long way for an U23s match, but I volunteer to write the reports for the club website and programme, and it's a fairly straightforward trip to Chippenham, where they play their U23s matches, as opposed to Nailsworth.

I don't count the 'friendly' matches in the statistics I try to keep for the U23s matches, so fixtures in the Central League, Central League Cup, Premier League Cup and Essex Senior Cup contribute to those goalscoring figures that I quoted. Either way, I agree that Ba hasn't scored enough.

Football now is very different to when Chris Powell was coming through. Players in general will not play a huge amount of second-string football (whether you want to call it the U23s or Reserves). Again, I agree that Dru isn't as educated as his counterparts 20 or 30 years would have been (he's played 8 career competitive U23s matches, for the record). There's much more emphasis now on learning on the job. As I mentioned in another thread last week, he's only been playing in the centre of midfield for two-and-a-half seasons since being converted from a winger when he graduated to the U18s.

Kelman has plenty of time; he's almost been forced into action at his age because of the injury situation at the club. He's shown plenty of good qualities when featuring for the U18s and that goal against Plymouth has obviously attracted further attention. When we have a fully-fit strikeforce, he might well feature for the U18s again, and he'll certainly get plenty of game-time in the U23s next season if he doesn't suddenly hit his straps in the first-team.

What I'm particularly drawn to with Charlie is his composure; if he gets an opportunity (and playing alongside Cox he's likely to do so) rather than creating something from nothing inside his own half, then I've no doubt he'll take it. He's done it on the biggest occasions in youth team football already - in the last minute of extra time in The FA Youth Cup, in the last minute of added time against Cambridge when the U18s were trying to extend their unbeaten run and had just conceded an equaliser, in controlling an excellent lob over the goalkeeper in the Youth Alliance Cup away to AFC Bournemouth, who are preparing players for the Premier League, despite being a Category 3 Academy.

And I don't think that he would necessarily be able to replicate those situations in the U23s who, aside from the Essex Senior Cup and if we could manage to qualify for the group stages of the Premier League Cup, don't have the same sort of scenarios as he would come across in the competitive environment of the U18s. What he would learn from is getting the chance to play alongside, or against, more seasoned campaigners and from an experienced Football League player in Kevin Maher.

All that said, I don't necessarily disagree with Norman Wabo being given an opportunity. His two goals at FGR were excellent; the first he took with real aplomb after taking advantage of the mistake created by Ba's hard work, and the second was a real poacher's finish, reacting quickest to a loose ball in the penalty area but then clinically firing home and leaving the goalkeeper with no chance from an acute angle. He should be full of confidence, he's scoring goals regularly again and he's capable of a moment of brilliance, but he's also proven (first in the U18s and then U23s) that he has that 'fox-in-the-box' mentality.

As I said originally, though, I think Bunn would be the option that Chris Powell goes for if he wants to change things up front, because he has played at this level (and above) and is capable of performing that role instead of Ba. We could then see Kelman or Wabo off the bench, depending on the match situation.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Did you see the 23s game last week at FGR? It just seems along way to have gone to watch the 23s!!

I watched the Harlow game and would definitely agree with the fact it was Ba’s introduction that helped change the game....however Hutchinson moved to the right and Phillips to the left and they went from 1 up from to 442....that was the real key.

In the following round though it was actually taking Klass off that changed the game...Ba and Wabo were already up front...but they gave Hutchinson more freedom from a 442 to go and create by bringing on Zak Pianim

Ba hasn’t scored enough goals for me at that level but I do like him. The 23s is so hit and miss with fixtures and added midweek games that are “friendlies” they have only played about 8/9 league games....so in total Wabo leads the way with 18 goals and Hutchinson has 17...so 1 or 2 goals from Ba isn’t enough.....for me Wabo has earned his right to stake a claim for a start way ahead of Charlie Kelman who should have a consistent run at 23s football and it’s learning curve rather than skip the education it provides.

CP said about how Dru had 50 first team games under his belt with barely an appearance for the 23s whilst when he’d been the same age he’d played 150 reserve games.....I personally think that has contributed to Drus inability to find his way out of a sticky spell....he simply has no football education to fall back on and lean on in times of trouble.

Charlie Kelman will go the same way if the club aren’t careful because in my humble opinion apart from a freak goal he has looked like a fish out of water in first team minutes, none more so than Saturday when Blackpool away was a tough ask for senior pros let alone a kid from the youth team.

I don't think we really disagree on where Kelman is at the moment. It's just a case of do we want to play to Cox's strengths (as a 10 not a 9), in which case which of the young forwards is best at playing ahead of him.

I'm not picking Ba to score goals (although it would be nice). I'm picking him to stretch Scunthorpe, to close them down, chase lost causes and wear them down. Hopefully that will lead to chances for other players, including the reinforcements from off the bench.

And on that note I'd be interested in your views on how best to utilise Isaac Hutchinson? I see him as most effective for now as a sub, coming on against tired legs once the game has opened up. I'd be looking at giving him 20-25 minute cameos most weeks.

The comparison with Dru is interesting. They've both experienced a similar amount of success at adult football - about half a season each (albeit Dru's was in the first team last season) and are now having to deal with football prehaps not being easy for maybe the first time in their lives. Hopefully both will learn and be prospering regularly in the first team before long.

 

[LBBlue]

45 mph winds forecast for tomorrow evening in Scunny .... it’s not going to be pretty...... I do hate football in the wind. It makes it a complete lottery.

 

[Blues4LifeDan]

After being out for 18 months, it's a huge ask for Kiernan to play 2 matches in 4 days. I can see Moore coming in for this one.

 

[Grapevine]

Two very good posts. I’m not sure @Yorkshire Blue if you were asking me or @Exiled Shrimper for their opinion.....

Exiled Shrimper I agree with a lot of what you’ve said, like I say it was a really good post.

What I don’t agree with is you saying players don’t often play a lot of second string football..... The problem we have in this country is actually often these players play second string football for too long!! It’s getting them into the first team that’s the difficult bit usually!!

But there has to be a balance, too little can be as damaging long term as too much....some of the talent at Cat 1 clubs that rots away at premier league 23s level is criminal!!

The levels of 16/17 year olds at these clubs is just mind boggling and unfortunately they can stagnate through not being challenged whereas at lower league clubs players can move on and overtake some of these players.

However, in the final analysis it is more often going to be the boys from the cat 1s that filter down into our clubs than it is going to be boys produced by us that overtake them....there will always be exceptions but there will be more pros in the lower leagues that have come from premier league clubs than there will be from the lower league clubs themselves.....there’s a food chain and dropping out of a Southend will often see you end up at Billaricay (or the like) whereas leaving Chelsea / Arsenal etc or even a QPR or an Aston Villa will see you hit many branches on your way down the tree....Southend being one of them....

Anyway, my point was, that not many players gain a football education without the experience of second string football.....usually, if they are exceptional, it will just be from an earlier age...15/16 yr olds in the 23s regularly rather than 19/20 years then having a sustained spell in the 23s......I’ve said before, if you aren’t getting first team experience somewhere by the time you’re 20 / 21 you’ve probably missed the boat for whatever level you were aiming at....

For Charlie the gap from cat 3 U18s to league 1 without an experience between and without learning his trade is dangerous.

He won’t enjoy the success (or failure) of so many types of finishes, he won’t learn when to and when not to take an extra touch before his shot, when to pass or shoot or when lay off or dribble....he won’t encounter as many 1v1 situations with or without the ball and he won’t get the ball exposure that’ll determine his decision making process......

He will simply play game in a rush. He’ll always enjoy some success....even a blind squirrel always finds nuts...but he’ll be chasing a game, arriving too late in most cases, (IMO like Saturday), releasing the ball too soon out of pressure and losing out physically when he should be spending longer in possession to learn.....

Ian Wright said in an interview that he reason he has such a variety of goals to his name was due to playing Sunday league football so late where he was able to experiment and try things and when he finally made it he was able to do things naturally that other players had never been able to try or learn....

That said, I agree with you on the qualities he has and what you’ve identified as his attributes. I just know there’s a huge difference in being able to execute them in kids football as opposed to having to execute them against league 1 players without having had the chance to hone his skills and become suitably proficient.....

 

[stewart]

Are we really expecting both Lennon and Kiernan to play after a full match on Saturday?

Yes !