Searching Pupils at school - any teachers know the law

[dloman]

If someone reports, "A child in class x has got a knife in their bag" but cannot be specific as to which child, there are no "grounds to believe every child in that class had a banned item on them"(your words) , so they should not search anyone ?

As for the issue about the searches being overseen by a witness, I believe that is there more for the teachers protection (accusations of the teacher touching inappropriately etc) than for the Childs benefit and, possibly that in ignoring it in order to get the searches done swiftly , may well indicate the level of severity the school placed on the incident

And bear in mind what happened to the teacher last week who got stabbed. Sometimes things have to be conducted in a quick fashion for the safety of all people there.

 

[rigsby]

No you are wrong. What happened was the whole class was searched without any reasoning as to why. Searches carried out without the consent of the pupil have to be because there is good grounds that the particular pupil being searched is carrying something banned by the school. In this case, the whole class was searched. Do you really think there were grounds to believe every child in that class had a banned item on them? No of course not. The law also states there has to be a witness to each search. As 3 teachers were searching pupils simultaniously, they couldn't be witnessing any other search at the time of the search. It's about having rules and boundaries and the school crossing those boundaries and breaking the rules set in place

So just to be clear, your son comes home and tells you one version of the event and don't bother to check why the school acted as they did. As others have said there may well have been a very urgent reason for this. In a profession that's as dynamic as teaching you cant follow rules to the letter.

Your not exactly setting a good example to your son. A word of advice whinging parents end up with whinging children

 

[Jam_Man]

The problem is they have no right to search pupils without consent unless they have reasonable grounds to search. IE they think the pupil has something prohibited. The whole class was searched.

Taylor is the most straight and honest kid you will meet. He was upset the teacher thought he had something he shouldn't, upset he had to roll his trouser leg up so the teacher could see and feel in his socks. I am bloody fuming

I have no doubt he is, but are you sure every kid in the class is?

If they had been given some information that someone in his class had a knife but they didnt know who wouldnt you want them to be sure, and the security and safety of your lad would come ahead of how being searched made him feel ?

My daughter is the same, a good kid and top of most of her classes, but I would have no problem with teachers searching the whole class if they thought she was at risk from one of the kids who arent as good.

Your lad is a sensitive boy, that much is obvious, but he shouldnt feel bad they searched him as it wasnt directed solely at him.

 

[OldBlueLady]

I absolutely hear what people are saying here, tar them all with the same brush to weed out a culprit. It's not that unusual is it?

 

[Jam_Man]

I absolutely hear what people are saying here, tar them all with the same brush to weed out a culprit. It's not that unusual is it?

Id be annoyed if my daughter was searched on her own, but If I felt the school were taking strong positive action to prevent anything serious Id see it as a good thing and just explain to her that they didnt suspect her but had to show they were being fair and thorough.

 

[EastStandBlue]

Sounds like Taylor would not cope well at a comprehensive in Baltimore.

 

[OldBlueLady]

Id be annoyed if my daughter was searched on her own, but If I felt the school were taking strong positive action to prevent anything serious Id see it as a good thing and just explain to her that they didnt suspect her but had to show they were being fair and thorough.

Exactly. I do think DWB needs to access the appropriate school policy though, it may well be that the situation wasn't handled correctly.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I think I would be pleased that a school were acting on suspicions of drugs / knives / stolen property being in the school. If they had information about that I would hope they would act and searching every child in my eyes is fair - no one is singled out that way. To not act seems to me to be.......political correctness gone mad

 

[LCBB72]

A few years ago my daughter had her mobile phone stolen by a girl in her class , within 5 minutes she had phoned my wife . My wife was up the school within 15 minutes banging on the headmasters door , he would not seach the girl as he said it was ( a grey area ) . Everyone and his cat knew this girl had the phone but he said he could do nothing about it . The police were informed but did nothing . We heared nothing so one day about three weeks later I phoned the police , I told the guy on the other end of the phone what had happend , to my surprise he said that he was Inspector someone I can not remember his name and said that this was disgusting and would have an officer up the school within the hour . The upshot is my daughter did not get her phone back but the girl was suspended . All this because this headmaster would not seach this girl .

 

[number11]

So the school do something presumably for the welfare and benefit of the pupils and people want to get all self righteous? If everyone was being searched why would your son feel harshly treated? I'd be pleased that those pupils who may bring inappropriate items have now had a message sent to them that they could be searched at any time, making it safer for all including your child.

 

[united we stand]

No you are wrong. What happened was the whole class was searched without any reasoning as to why. Searches carried out without the consent of the pupil have to be because there is good grounds that the particular pupil being searched is carrying something banned by the school. In this case, the whole class was searched. Do you really think there were grounds to believe every child in that class had a banned item on them? No of course not. The law also states there has to be a witness to each search. As 3 teachers were searching pupils simultaniously, they couldn't be witnessing any other search at the time of the search. It's about having rules and boundaries and the school crossing those boundaries and breaking the rules set in place

I have two kids although they are older than yours (16 and 18) . If they had been searched at your sons age I would have had no issue with it what so ever. I dont care if the rules say they can or they cant do it- if the school thinks its the right thing to do then I will back the school. Both my kids were lucky enough to go to excellent schools, I didn't/dont agree with a lot of what they do (especially the one with the better reputation !) but I have learnt to accept it and to question it when I have not been happy. I tend to think that the school did it for a good reason . Common sense dictates that they are not going to tell the kids that reason . Ask the school to explain my all means, but do it in a neutral manor. If you go in the same fashion as on this thread you are less likely to come away happy IMO.

Teachers have a very difficult job, and too many parents IMO always 'assume' the school is wrong before getting all of the facts in front of them.

As an aside if the school was told that your son was carrying a weapon would you want them to investigate? The school would no doubt think it was total rubbish but they would have to act. Instead of ONLY searching your son and no one else they may think it better to search everyone and not just him? I have no idea if this scenario is possible or not, but my point is its better to ask than assume the worst imo

 

[BaileytheQuitter]

The school/teachers are only going to have acted in the best interests of the pupils so I don't really see the issue here. Your son hasn't been made a victim, he hasn't been singled out and he hasn't been violated.

If you were on a plane and it was reported that someone on the plane had a weapon/drugs, would you object to the whole plane being searched for the safety of the passengers and staff? I doubt it.

Just another case of parents jumping to conclusions and immediately accusing the school of being in the wrong. As a primary school teacher I know this feeling all too well. Teachers (generally, I can't say ALL teachers are good people) want the best for their students. About time parents realised this and gave us some support rather than making us out to be the perpetrators.

Agree with what one poster said, a moaning parent creates a moaning child and that is not healthy for them.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

The school/teachers are only going to have acted in the best interests of the pupils so I don't really see the issue here. Your son hasn't been made a victim, he hasn't been singled out and he hasn't been violated.

If you were on a plane and it was reported that someone on the plane had a weapon/drugs, would you object to the whole plane being searched for the safety of the passengers and staff? I doubt it.

Just another case of parents jumping to conclusions and immediately accusing the school of being in the wrong. As a primary school teacher I know this feeling all too well. Teachers (generally, I can't say ALL teachers are good people) want the best for their students. About time parents realised this and gave us some support rather than making us out to be the perpetrators.

Agree with what one poster said, a moaning parent creates a moaning child and that is not healthy for them.

Hang on a minute. The DofE states that in order to search a child without consent, there has to be reasonable belief that the pupil is carrying something banned at the school. The whole class was searched as 'a random routine' search. It was without consent and all pupils were searched, which means there has to be a reasonable belief that every child has something they shouldn't.

It may seem petty to you but if the school are ignoring instruction form the DofE on this, what else are they ingnoring and doing however they want? There are rules and governance in place for a reason. I am not a moany parent but if I see something happening outside of the boundareis agreed, I am entitled to question why

I also found out last night that the female pupils were searched by male teachers. The police can't even do that. Add to that we were told by the school that every pupil in year 7 was searched, we know for a fact that my son;s class was the only class searched

 

[BaileytheQuitter]

Hang on a minute. The DofE states that in order to search a child without consent, there has to be reasonable belief that the pupil is carrying something banned at the school. The whole class was searched as 'a random routine' search. It was without consent and all pupils were searched, which means there has to be a reasonable belief that every child has something they shouldn't.

It may seem petty to you but if the school are ignoring instruction form the DofE on this, what else are they ingnoring and doing however they want? There are rules and governance in place for a reason. I am not a moany parent but if I see something happening outside of the boundareis agreed, I am entitled to question why

I also found out last night that the female pupils were searched by male teachers. The police can't even do that. Add to that we were told by the school that every pupil in year 7 was searched, we know for a fact that my son;s class was the only class searched

Out of interest, can you disclose what school your son attends?

 

[davewebbsbrain]

Out of interest, can you disclose what school your son attends?

Eastwood Academy

 

[united we stand]

Hang on a minute. The DofE states that in order to search a child without consent, there has to be reasonable belief that the pupil is carrying something banned at the school. The whole class was searched as 'a random routine' search. It was without consent and all pupils were searched, which means there has to be a reasonable belief that every child has something they shouldn't.

It may seem petty to you but if the school are ignoring instruction form the DofE on this, what else are they ingnoring and doing however they want? There are rules and governance in place for a reason. I am not a moany parent but if I see something happening outside of the boundareis agreed, I am entitled to question why

I also found out last night that the female pupils were searched by male teachers. The police can't even do that. Add to that we were told by the school that every pupil in year 7 was searched, we know for a fact that my son;s class was the only class searched

You may want to read back everything you have posted on this thread . Your posts do not come through as someone who is questioning with an open mind. I'm alos not sure that you are 100% correct in your understanding or consent/ non consent . It appears that you are upset that 'the rules have been broken' , but reading the below I would question if they have been broken?

Why not give the school the benefit of the doubt until you speak to them , rather than assuming they are in the wrong ?
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ching_screening_confiscation_advice_feb14.pdf

 Schools are not required to have formal written consent from the pupil for this sort of search – it is enough for the teacher to ask the pupil to turn out his or her pockets or if the teacher can look in the pupil’s bag or locker and for the pupil to agree.



Your post title was 'help needed' but you don't seem at all interested in hearing anything which disagrees with you

 

[Berrichonne shrimper]

Looking forward to the DWB posts when poor Taylor starts work and you sort out all his problems on a day to day basis,in my eyes your job as a father is to help your child grow and be as strong as he possibly can because life is hard and more so in the UK.
I would have explained to him why i felt the school had acted in such a way and let him know that you trust him to do the right thing,running up the school at every fart is pointless and only sets your son apart from the others.
If the school is that bad then move him or send him private i know i would and i would go without golf to pay for it or get a 2nd job.
Every one has added a story so here is mine.
When ginger number 1 was 9 the head master walked into the class and my boy was slow in standing up so the head grabbed him by his clothes and yanked him up out of his chair,this left red marks on his arms.
I asked him if he wanted me to have a word with the head and he said no and when i asked why not he answered that HE should have stood up quicker and in future he would do just that.
Schools educate kids in all the bollox that they will not need and you teach them the important things,good luck.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

Looking forward to the DWB posts when poor Taylor starts work and you sort out all his problems on a day to day basis,in my eyes your job as a father is to help your child grow and be as strong as he possibly can because life is hard and more so in the UK.
I would have explained to him why i felt the school had acted in such a way and let him know that you trust him to do the right thing,running up the school at every fart is pointless and only sets your son apart from the others.
If the school is that bad then move him or send him private i know i would and i would go without golf to pay for it or get a 2nd job.
Every one has added a story so here is mine.
When ginger number 1 was 9 the head master walked into the class and my boy was slow in standing up so the head grabbed him by his clothes and yanked him up out of his chair,this left red marks on his arms.
I asked him if he wanted me to have a word with the head and he said no and when i asked why not he answered that HE should have stood up quicker and in future he would do just that.
Schools educate kids in all the bollox that they will not need and you teach them the important things,good luck.

We have actually said to Taylor it's just something to learn from.

I had my doubts on the school from the first time we went to an open evening. All about results, results, results and nothing about the pastoral care of the children. Taylor didn't want to go there, we didn't want him to go there but that's the school we were given.

My thoughts were that maybe going to a school where he has to deal with things rather than having pastoral care would be a good thing, stand him in good stead for future life, but it hasn't worked that way.

Too many incidents where the pupils are guilty until proven innocent. The case of Taylor winning a tablet in a raffle for 100% attendance then having it taken away, detention because a book got wet, no fault of his own...the list goes on.

On the plus side, Taylor has flourished in the sports dept, represented the school in the district and Regional sports for 100m and Shot Putt, which I was very proud of. All this while having a severely ingrowing toenail and swollen toe. The only downside being he was shouted at for not beating his personal best at one event. Also picked for the Basketball team, swam in the gala and is now trying out for the cricket team. Hopeflully more of this to come next year.

Maybe next year will be better, maybe teachers will get the full facts before dishing out punishment, maybe there will be more pastoral care and a willingness to put the pupils care over results...maybe, but I really don't hold out much hope.

The biggest thing with the search wasn't that he was searched, but that it was outside of the DofE guidelines. As I said before, if the school are breaching on that, what else are they breaching on?

 

[Jam_Man]

Hang on a minute. The DofE states that in order to search a child without consent, there has to be reasonable belief that the pupil is carrying something banned at the school. The whole class was searched as 'a random routine' search. It was without consent and all pupils were searched, which means there has to be a reasonable belief that every child has something they shouldn't.

It may seem petty to you but if the school are ignoring instruction form the DofE on this, what else are they ingnoring and doing however they want? There are rules and governance in place for a reason. I am not a moany parent but if I see something happening outside of the boundareis agreed, I am entitled to question why

I also found out last night that the female pupils were searched by male teachers. The police can't even do that. Add to that we were told by the school that every pupil in year 7 was searched, we know for a fact that my son;s class was the only class searched

They have confirmed to you they just searched everyone just out of routine then and not because they were looking for something?

Thats slightly different, but I still wouldnt have a big issue with it myself.

If they didnt nothing and you found out some kid had been taking a knife to school and the school had never taken any measures you wouldnt be happy.

My daughter is the same age as you and I too am very defensive and over protective about my kids, but I do think you are being over sensitive on this DWB.

They may not have followed procedures properly and may have done things better which can be addressed, but as I say, I wouldnt have any issue with it happening at my daughers school.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

You may want to read back everything you have posted on this thread . Your posts do not come through as someone who is questioning with an open mind. I'm alos not sure that you are 100% correct in your understanding or consent/ non consent . It appears that you are upset that 'the rules have been broken' , but reading the below I would question if they have been broken?

Why not give the school the benefit of the doubt until you speak to them , rather than assuming they are in the wrong ?
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ching_screening_confiscation_advice_feb14.pdf

 Schools are not required to have formal written consent from the pupil for this sort ofsearch – it is enough for the teacher to ask the pupil to turn out his or her pockets or ifthe teacher can look in the pupil’s bag or locker and for the pupil to agree.

Establishing grounds for a search
 Teachers can only undertake a search without consent if they have reasonable grounds for suspecting that a pupil may have in his or her possession a prohibited item. The teacher must decide in each particular case what constitutes reasonable grounds for suspicion. For example, they may have heard other pupils talking about the item or they might notice a pupil behaving in a way that causes them to be suspicious.

The doc you linked is what I have been looking at and the above extract is taken from it. The whole class was searched without consent.As per above, there needs to be grounds for the search. I can't for one minute believe there were grounds to believe EVERY child in that class was searched.