Simon Dobbin Verdicts

[GBJ]

Would the threat of a joint enterprise conviction not get some of them talking?

Is that even a thing in this country? I know they use similar tactics in America for these kinds of situations... RICO cases for example, has seen many innocent people sent to prison.

That doesn’t sit right with me.

 

[amsemp]

Is that even a thing in this country? I know they use similar tactics in America for these kinds of situations... RICO cases for example, has seen many innocent people to prison.

That doesn’t sit right with me.

Yeah it is. Not sure how common it is though. Remember watching something about it. Young lad was convicted of murder when his role in it was waiting outside in a getaway vehicle while his mates were inside a shop robbing it. Owner put up a bit of a fight and was stabbed and killed. One guy was responsible for the actual stabbing, but they all went down for murder.

 

[GBJ]

Yeah it is. Not sure how common it is though. Remember watching something about it. Young lad was convicted of murder when his role in it was waiting outside in a getaway vehicle while his mates were inside a shop robbing it. Owner put up a bit of a fight and was stabbed and killed. One guy was responsible for the actual stabbing, but they all went down for murder.

I’d say that’s different to this case though. There is a degree of premeditation & conspiracy with that one, that the getaway driver wouldn’t be able to argue his way out of.

 

[Richard Hearn]

Is that even a thing in this country? I know they use similar tactics in America for these kinds of situations... RICO cases for example, has seen many innocent people sent to prison.

That doesn’t sit right with me.

Hasn't it always been in some form or another? cf Derek Bentley.

 

[rigsby]

Is that even a thing in this country? I know they use similar tactics in America for these kinds of situations... RICO cases for example, has seen many innocent people sent to prison.

That doesn’t sit right with me.

Yes they changed the law in Britain a few years back. Word amongst the gangs was always twist the knife. That way even if you and others were arrested with the victims blood on your knife, it could not be proved that your knife made the fatal stab wound.

If we had US rules then the Cambridge fans involved that day could also be charged as they certainly did head to Southend with intent.

In the SD case it could be argued that if several people were kicking him then their all guilty. From what I have heard thats not the case.

 

[Chris Powell's mate]

"they couldn’t determine who they were, they had to charge everyone who was in the vicinity with a lesser crime, to ensure they got some form of conviction?"

I'm no legal expert, but it's unlikely someone is convicted of violent disorder if there's no proof.

Of the 25 men who reportedly set upon Simon, nine were convicted for violent disorder.
As for further action, Essex Police are quoted as assessing the situation.

There are a welter of suggestions, but I think some sort of supporter statement expressing condolences will show where our heart lies.

 

[rigsby]

"they couldn’t determine who they were, they had to charge everyone who was in the vicinity with a lesser crime, to ensure they got some form of conviction?"

I'm no legal expert, but it's unlikely someone is convicted of violent disorder if there's no proof.

Of the 25 men who reportedly set upon Simon, nine were convicted for violent disorder.
As for further action, Essex Police are quoted as assessing the situation.

There are a welter of suggestions, but I think some sort of supporter statement expressing condolences will show where our heart lies.

That is figure has no credibility.

Plus some of the people were found guilty on almost zero evidence......I think it would be much harder to get amore serious conviction and in some cases they may be found innocent as further witnesses have come forward after the trial.

 

[Floval Flyer]

Yes they changed the law in Britain a few years back. Word amongst the gangs was always twist the knife. That way even if you and others were arrested with the victims blood on your knife, it could not be proved that your knife made the fatal stab wound.

If we had US rules then the Cambridge fans involved that day could also be charged as they certainly did head to Southend with intent.

In the SD case it could be argued that if several people were kicking him then their all guilty. From what I have heard thats not the case.

Interesting point, as I was lead to believe that SD and two friends approached the pub where the SUFC supporters were drinking and provoked them into a confrontation. The catastrophic repercussions we know.

Controversial I know, but I wonder if the truth will ever come out, if potentially there is a retrial.

Regarding sending ‘deepest sympathies’ from SUFC to Mrs Dobbin, it’s a hard one, as in my mind the people involved don’t represent me or the team I support. Not sure she will see it in the same light.

Very tragic and I feel so sorry for her and her family. The past 5 years must have been horrific. I wonder if she will pursue the case for a higher charge or wish to consider this as closure? It will ultimately only reap more pain for her and the families involved.

RIP Simon

 

[Paulie Walnuts]

The reason why nobody was charged in the first instance with either GBH/attempted murder was that the did not plan to attack dobbin directly it was more of a plan of dissorder hence the charges. This was the words on the head of Essex CPS.

Dobbin or at least his mates attacked the railway pub and unfortunately it backfired massively causing him such horrific injuries. Someone has no doubt gone way OTT on him and deserves to face justice but proving that is gonna be very difficult indeed.

As for being embarrassed, let’s get one thing straight and that’s Cambridge came down with a lot of men who intended and did cause harm to our fans and that includes the group he was with all day. I’m in no way condoning a man getting kicked about like that but it could easily been a Southend fan in his position with their behaviour all day. We will never know why him and his group did what they did but I wish to hell they didn’t because we ain’t gonna hear the end of this for a while and have to listen to the usual bull **** from the press.
No winners in this, awful day.

 

[rigsby]

The reason why nobody was charged in the first instance with either GBH/attempted murder was that the did not plan to attack dobbin directly it was more of a plan of dissorder hence the charges. This was the words on the head of Essex CPS.

Dobbin or at least his mates attacked the railway pub and unfortunately it backfired massively causing him such horrific injuries. Someone has no doubt gone way OTT on him and deserves to face justice but proving that is gonna be very difficult indeed.

As for being embarrassed, let’s get one thing straight and that’s Cambridge came down with a lot of men who intended and did cause harm to our fans and that includes the group he was with all day. I’m in no way condoning a man getting kicked about like that but it could easily been a Southend fan in his position with their behaviour all day. We will never know why him and his group did what they did but I wish to hell they didn’t because we ain’t gonna hear the end of this for a while and have to listen to the usual bull **** from the press.
No winners in this, awful day.

In some ways i wish the whole truth would come out because at the moment its reported as 20 men jumping an innocent fan (which he may well have been).

But I was in the Spread before the game where their mob of 30+ had come in and kicked off. It certainly wasn't how the police described at the trial "Two groups of fans hurling glasses at each other"

They attacked us and they were throwing the glasses. I just got covered in beer but the lad behind me got hit and a Southend fan ended up on the floor at their feet. We couldn't run away because the South door is locked, so we stood our ground and the doorman and a few of us fans helped push them off the grounded Shrimper.

Two of them were 6 feet away from me and both pointing directly at me and snarling some serious s***......The reason I'm not ashamed is there were some very scared Southend dads with their children trapped the wrong side of the bar and if several of us had not faced them, it could well be the Cambridge forum debating about sending cards to a Southend widow.

They were in their 40's so not skinny lads just mouthing off. They meant business and we got off lightly......Shame the CCTV camera wasn't working, nor and very conveniently, the police body cam.

 

[Floval Flyer]

The reason why nobody was charged in the first instance with either GBH/attempted murder was that the did not plan to attack dobbin directly it was more of a plan of dissorder hence the charges. This was the words on the head of Essex CPS.

Dobbin or at least his mates attacked the railway pub and unfortunately it backfired massively causing him such horrific injuries. Someone has no doubt gone way OTT on him and deserves to face justice but proving that is gonna be very difficult indeed.

As for being embarrassed, let’s get one thing straight and that’s Cambridge came down with a lot of men who intended and did cause harm to our fans and that includes the group he was with all day. I’m in no way condoning a man getting kicked about like that but it could easily been a Southend fan in his position with their behaviour all day. We will never know why him and his group did what they did but I wish to hell they didn’t because we ain’t gonna hear the end of this for a while and have to listen to the usual bull **** from the press.
No winners in this, awful day.

Very well put, but as we all know the press are never interested in the truth.

 

[GBJ]

I'm no legal expert, but it's unlikely someone is convicted of violent disorder if there's no proof

You don’t think innocent people ever get wrongly convicted then? Lol. I know of one specific case where someone was charged with GBH around 12-years ago, despite being completely innocent. The OB believed they had enough evidence to charge the person, so they must have believed they had enough to earn a conviction too... or at least be able to spin the narrative to make the individual look guilty.

As it turned out, that person was on bail for about a week before getting a call to say that the charges were being dropped, which was a relief as they had been told to expect a 2-year custodial sentence if it didn’t go their way.

That right there, was a perfect example of the old bill desperately trying to pin a name to a violent crime at any expense... even if it meant an innocent person paying the price.

I’m not going to trawl the Internet looking for the quote, but I distinctly remember Essex Police suggesting that they wished the charges in this case could have been heavier, but they weren’t certain of a conviction, so could only go for lesser charges - which carried lower sentences - in order to guarantee getting it over the line.

 

[Chris Powell's mate]

You don’t think innocent people ever get wrongly convicted then? Lol. I know of one specific case where someone was charged with GBH around 12-years ago, despite being completely innocent. The OB believed they had enough evidence to charge the person, so they must have believed they had enough to earn a conviction too... or at least be able to spin the narrative to make the individual look guilty.

As it turned out, that person was on bail for about a week before getting a call to say that the charges were being dropped, which was a relief as they had been told to expect a 2-year custodial sentence if it didn’t go their way.

That right there, was a perfect example of the old bill desperately trying to pin a name to a violent crime at any expense... even if it meant an innocent person paying the price.

I’m not going to trawl the Internet looking for the quote, but I distinctly remember Essex Police suggesting that they wished the charges in this case could have been heavier, but they weren’t certain of a conviction, so could only go for lesser charges - which carried lower sentences - in order to guarantee getting it over the line.

I think you're missing the point I was trying to make.
The suggestion in a previous thread was a lesser charge was preferred to no charge at all, because there was scant proof.
The court felt there was sufficient proof to charge the nine with violent disorder, and so it came to pass.
That there have been miscarriages of justice goes without saying.
I think your example is missing something.
Do we know why the charges were dropped? For example, further evidence came to light or something else?

 

[Chris Powell's mate]

That is figure has no credibility.

Plus some of the people were found guilty on almost zero evidence......I think it would be much harder to get amore serious conviction and in some cases they may be found innocent as further witnesses have come forward after the trial.

You're saying that convictions were based solely on the seriousness of the crime at the time?
Really?
So, for argument's sake, they would have walked away had they been charged with manslaughter?
BTW, 'guilty on ALMOST zero evidence' is not the same as no evidence. Slightly pregnant, and all that.

 

[GBJ]

I think you're missing the point I was trying to make.
The suggestion in a previous thread was a lesser charge was preferred to no charge at all, because there was scant proof.
The court felt there was sufficient proof to charge the nine with violent disorder, and so it came to pass.
That there have been miscarriages of justice goes without saying.
I think your example is missing something.
Do we know why the charges were dropped? For example, further evidence came to light or something else?

Yes, there was sufficient proof to throw a blanket conviction over all 13 men involved... but from what I recall of the court transcripts, the only crime for some of them, was simply standing outside the pub... which equated to conspiracy somehow.

The charges were dropped in the case that I mentioned, due to CCTV evidence... something the Old Bill completely ignored at the time of arrest and the at time of charging.

I’m lead to believe that the evidence they had up until that point, was the word of a single drunk man, who had witnessed a fight from a distance. They originally said that CCTV in the area either wasn’t working, or was inconclusive.

As far as I’m concerned, the old bill had their perp at that point, and if they hadn’t been pushed to check ALL CCTV in the area - something they seemed reluctant to do - then an innocent person could have been stitched up and had their life ruined for nothing.

 

[Hawkwell Blue]

It doesn't shame me. Doesn't shame my family or my friends.

It does shame the idiots from both clubs that caused the events to escalate into the attack on Simon.

100% agree, police should have nipped it in the bud before the game.

 

[Chris Powell's mate]

Yes, there was sufficient proof to throw a blanket conviction over all 13 men involved... but from what I recall of the court transcripts, the only crime for some of them, was simply standing outside the pub... which equated to conspiracy somehow.

The charges were dropped in the case that I mentioned, due to CCTV evidence... something the Old Bill completely ignored at the time of arrest and the at time of charging.

I’m lead to believe that the evidence they had up until that point, was the word of a single drunk man, who had witnessed a fight from a distance. They originally said that CCTV in the area either wasn’t working, or was inconclusive.

As far as I’m concerned, the old bill had their perp at that point, and if they hadn’t been pushed to check ALL CCTV in the area - something they seemed reluctant to do - then an innocent person could have been stitched up and had their life ruined for nothing.

Point taken, but are you comparing the guilty in the Simon Dobbins case with the man in your case?

 

[GBJ]

Point taken, but are you comparing the guilty in the Simon Dobbins case with the man in your case?

There are similarities IMO.

The story that has been told & accepted, is that this was a vicious 12-on-1 attack, when in reality it wasn’t.

Edit: This shouldn’t detract away from fact that what happened that night was tragic & completely unnecessary.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

In some ways i wish the whole truth would come out because at the moment its reported as 20 men jumping an innocent fan (which he may well have been).

But I was in the Spread before the game where their mob of 30+ had come in and kicked off. It certainly wasn't how the police described at the trial "Two groups of fans hurling glasses at each other"

They attacked us and they were throwing the glasses. I just got covered in beer but the lad behind me got hit and a Southend fan ended up on the floor at their feet. We couldn't run away because the South door is locked, so we stood our ground and the doorman and a few of us fans helped push them off the grounded Shrimper.

Two of them were 6 feet away from me and both pointing directly at me and snarling some serious s***......The reason I'm not ashamed is there were some very scared Southend dads with their children trapped the wrong side of the bar and if several of us had not faced them, it could well be the Cambridge forum debating about sending cards to a Southend widow.

They were in their 40's so not skinny lads just mouthing off. They meant business and we got off lightly......Shame the CCTV camera wasn't working, nor and very conveniently, the police body cam.

I've heard the exact same story from a couple of other people. What beggars belief is how none of this was used in court. What happened to SD was tragic but would never have happened if him and his gang didn't hang around after the game trying to start a fight.

 

[rigsby]

You're saying that convictions were based solely on the seriousness of the crime at the time?
Really?
So, for argument's sake, they would have walked away had they been charged with manslaughter?
BTW, 'guilty on ALMOST zero evidence' is not the same as no evidence. Slightly pregnant, and all that.

Yes. If a jury is going to convict a person of murder or manslaughter they always need more evidence than if its for an assault.

Its why we could never reintroduce the death penalty and still have trial by jury......They are always aware of what a guilty verdict means.