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Some Club Staff Salaries Late/Embargo Chat - now resolved (for now)

harveyoe

Senior Lives Matter.
Joined
Nov 21, 2017
Messages
499
The question should be asked. Why are we insolvent when so many smaller clubs than us seem to get by.
Good question. The obvious answer is because ever since since god knows when our expenditure has exceeded our income, often by some distance. In the past this has often been made worse by spending even more money on chasing unrealistic dreams .

I'm afraid I can't answer the question for other clubs. I think it has often been mentioned that most smaller clubs are probably insolvent, so it is partly a football problem and not just a Southend one, although that does not excuse our situation.

The first step towards getting over these types of problems is to accept and acknowledge where we are and what we are., and I have a feeling that will be very difficult.
 

RHB

Super Moderator⭐
Staff member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
26,218
Location
Westcliff riviera
A new thread has been created for discussion on Fan owned smaller clubs and relevant posts moved from here.

 

londonblue

Topgun Pilot
Joined
Feb 18, 2004
Messages
17,472
About the only thing I am reasonably sure about is that some members of staff at the Club are waiting for wages. I have absolutely no idea whether there are plans in place to conjure up funds to cover the shortfall, nor do I know whether Ron has reneged on his funding promises.

So what next? Maybe the coming week will reveal more. Signing(s)? that would be good, Wages paid? That would be even better. But for now I'm not pointing fingers at anyone as I don't know why or what has caused this stoppage in progress. I just hope it's a temporary thing as I'm sure Tom Lawrence does.

Maybe too early for this question, but I'll throw it out there anyway. @Shrimperstrust - Are you aware of what may be occurring here and are you involved in any way to help move things forward? I will understand if it wouldn't be appropriate to comment.
I wonder if we're waiting on a payment from the National League, or even our shirt sponsors, or something other than season ticket money. I wonder if the staff in question have had their expectations managed, i.e. we're short, but we have some money coming in on [whatever date] so please bear with us until then. I'm not for a second suggesting that is acceptable, but it's a whole lot less bad than not telling them in advance.

Again, at the moment we only have one side of the argument.
 
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harveyoe

Senior Lives Matter.
Joined
Nov 21, 2017
Messages
499
A new thread has been created for discussion on Fan owned smaller clubs and relevant posts moved from here.

Thank you for that, much appreciated.

Whatever would we do without moderators?
 

Supa Shrimpa

Director⭐
Joined
Jan 19, 2009
Messages
3,453
it's worrying that this is the 11th day of this thread and the rumour / information has yet to be denied
 

Medway Blue

Frmrly Bexley Blue and JTSB⭐
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
6,199
Location
Chatham, Medway, Kent
Although most clubs may be technically insolvent they manage to pay their staff on time because their owner(s) are usually successful business people who are not ducking and diving with cash flow problems every few months.
Indeed. And lucky them. We can't magically turn our owner into one of those or swap him for one though.
 

sufc4life21

Newbie⭐
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Messages
2,106
Although most clubs may be technically insolvent they manage to pay their staff on time because their owner(s) are usually successful business people who are not ducking and diving with cash flow problems every few months.
Spot on. Unfortunately in the lower leagues owners at times have to dig deep. Whether that's right or wrong it's just the way of the world. Our owner doesn't have the funds when needed, which results in late wages, hmrc issues and now non league football.
 

RHB

Super Moderator⭐
Staff member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
26,218
Location
Westcliff riviera
The total silence around the club right now is not good IMO
We don't know what we don't know I'm afraid. There could be plans in place to be back in the financial game as I honestly can't believe that Tom Lawrence would not be active in trying to manage whatever this situation is. It's always the not knowing that is a killer for us supporters but often the truth is nowhere near as bad as we imagine it could be. It doesn't help that Ron is not the world's most popular bloke on here so there little or no trust that he may be working out a solution. Regardless of that opinion, he has, in the past finally come up with the goods before.

All we can do is sit and wait cos nobody is going to tell us what the bottom line is.
 

Medway Blue

Frmrly Bexley Blue and JTSB⭐
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
6,199
Location
Chatham, Medway, Kent
Not signing players improves the cash flow and allows these staff members to be paid . Perhaps that is the action that should be taken as soon as possible to sort things out , Would you be in favour of that action ?

Yes, absolutely in favour. These poor people need to be paid for the work they have done. Whatever sacrifices need to be made to make that happen are fine with me.

I've just been having this discussion with a couple of other posters. It does make me feel uneasy to perhaps sign a new player or two whilst some staff go unpaid, so there is definitely an argument for putting a halt on any incoming transfer activity until all staff wages are up-to-date.

The only thing I will say in the club's defence is that perhaps Tom Lawrence is also looking longer term with regards to cashflow. Let's say we stop all incoming transfer activity but still can't pay staff wages for another 3-4 weeks. We lose out on primary, secondary and perhaps even tertiary player targets, thus putting downward pressure on revenue generation through things such as season tickets, match tickets and merchandise because the club hasn't captured attention or imagination with its summer business. We are then able to start signing players again this time next month but oh look.....they're the dregs that nobody else wanted because all of our initial targets have signed for or are in advanced negotiations with other clubs. So the upturn in quality of the playing squad that we all wanted isn't happening. We end up spending next season in bottom half mediocrity, attendances and merchandise sales fall even further, we have even more difficulty attracting new sponsors at similar or higher rates to what we are getting now, and downward pressure on cashflow and cash reserves increases both during and outside of the season. Lo and behold, same time next summer, its not just staff wages that we can't pay but player wages too.

I'm not at all suggesting that anybody should shrug shoulders or see any unpaid staff as collateral, but perhaps Tom feels that he can ease further cashflow and cash reserves issues in the future by continuing to sign the players we've targeted and thus improve the chances of attendances and revenue increasing in the medium-to-long term.

I certainly don't envy our CEO at the moment. I will happily go on record to say that without him, we would be royally ****ed. He is fighting fires and spinning plates all over the place. He's too humble to admit it or to take any plaudits, but I honestly dread to think what would happen if he wasn't here. He's in a bit of a Catch-22, backed-into-a-corner, can't win kinda situation. A truly **** situation to be in, and it's all on one person. **** Ron Martin.
 

Yorkshire Blue

Super Moderator⭐
Staff member
Joined
Oct 27, 2003
Messages
38,392
Location
London
I've just been having this discussion with a couple of other posters. It does make me feel uneasy to perhaps sign a new player or two whilst some staff go unpaid, so there is definitely an argument for putting a halt on any incoming transfer activity until all staff wages are up-to-date.

The only thing I will say in the club's defence is that perhaps Tom Lawrence is also looking longer term with regards to cashflow. Let's say we stop all incoming transfer activity but still can't pay staff wages for another 3-4 weeks. We lose out on primary, secondary and perhaps even tertiary player targets, thus putting downward pressure on revenue generation through things such as season tickets, match tickets and merchandise because the club hasn't captured attention or imagination with its summer business. We are then able to start signing players again this time next month but oh look.....they're the dregs that nobody else wanted because all of our initial targets have signed for or are in advanced negotiations with other clubs. So the upturn in quality of the playing squad that we all wanted isn't happening. We end up spending next season in bottom half mediocrity, attendances and merchandise sales fall even further, we have even more difficulty attracting new sponsors at similar or higher rates to what we are getting now, and downward pressure on cashflow and cash reserves increases both during and outside of the season. Lo and behold, same time next summer, its not just staff wages that we can't pay but player wages too.

I'm not at all suggesting that anybody should shrug shoulders or see any unpaid staff as collateral, but perhaps Tom feels that he can ease further cashflow and cash reserves issues in the future by continuing to sign the players we've targeted and thus improve the chances of attendances and revenue increasing in the medium-to-long term.

I certainly don't envy our CEO at the moment. I will happily go on record to say that without him, we would be royally ****ed. He is fighting fires and spinning plates all over the place. He's too humble to admit it or to take any plaudits, but I honestly dread to think what would happen if he wasn't here. He's in a bit of a Catch-22, backed-into-a-corner, can't win kinda situation. A truly **** situation to be in, and it's all on one person. **** Ron Martin.
I think at this level players and agents will be familiar with cash flow issues. If Tom is upfront about it (eg we won’t have the cash for your signing on fee until (say) the TV money comes through from the NL at the end of the month ie next Thursday) then I think most won’t have a problem with it and will be content to sit tight until then. It’s not too dissimilar to what most of us face when we may need to wait until payday before paying someone and National League clubs aren’t going to be all that different.

Where it becomes problematic is if you don’t pay when you say you will or if you don’t have a source of regular income coming in.
 

harveyoe

Senior Lives Matter.
Joined
Nov 21, 2017
Messages
499
I've just been having this discussion with a couple of other posters. It does make me feel uneasy to perhaps sign a new player or two whilst some staff go unpaid, so there is definitely an argument for putting a halt on any incoming transfer activity until all staff wages are up-to-date.

The only thing I will say in the club's defence is that perhaps Tom Lawrence is also looking longer term with regards to cashflow. Let's say we stop all incoming transfer activity but still can't pay staff wages for another 3-4 weeks. We lose out on primary, secondary and perhaps even tertiary player targets, thus putting downward pressure on revenue generation through things such as season tickets, match tickets and merchandise because the club hasn't captured attention or imagination with its summer business. We are then able to start signing players again this time next month but oh look.....they're the dregs that nobody else wanted because all of our initial targets have signed for or are in advanced negotiations with other clubs. So the upturn in quality of the playing squad that we all wanted isn't happening. We end up spending next season in bottom half mediocrity, attendances and merchandise sales fall even further, we have even more difficulty attracting new sponsors at similar or higher rates to what we are getting now, and downward pressure on cashflow and cash reserves increases both during and outside of the season. Lo and behold, same time next summer, its not just staff wages that we can't pay but player wages too.

I'm not at all suggesting that anybody should shrug shoulders or see any unpaid staff as collateral, but perhaps Tom feels that he can ease further cashflow and cash reserves issues in the future by continuing to sign the players we've targeted and thus improve the chances of attendances and revenue increasing in the medium-to-long term.

I certainly don't envy our CEO at the moment. I will happily go on record to say that without him, we would be royally ****ed. He is fighting fires and spinning plates all over the place. He's too humble to admit it or to take any plaudits, but I honestly dread to think what would happen if he wasn't here. He's in a bit of a Catch-22, backed-into-a-corner, can't win kinda situation. A truly **** situation to be in, and it's all on one person. **** Ron Martin.
It would make me feel several degrees more than uneasy if we were to sign a player or two while staff remain unpaid. However, it doesn't matter how you or I feel, just try to imagine how the unpaid staff would feel. I sincerely hope that this will not happen.

When you employ staff, the deal is that they work all month and you hope that they will work with honesty and enthusiasm. At the end of the month you pay them, regardless of how you feel they have performed. If you feel they are not up to standard, there are better ways of dealing with this than withholding payment.

As far as budgets and cash flow forecasts are concerned. These need to be based mostly around known factors. You can consider a few ifs and maybes, but most of the thinking has to be solid. If at the end of the exercise you find that your current staffing levels, taken together with your known fixed costs, will exceed your income, then you look at ways to reduce costs. What you don't do is wait until the possibility of not being able to pay staff becomes a reality, which it will if you haven't budgeted correctly.

The idea of solving cash flow problems by employing even more staff could only possibly be considered in the fairy tale world of Southend United. This is something we have done so many times in the past and just look where we are today.

I have absolutely no problem with our CEO. I am quite sure that he is doing his very best with an almost impossible task and I admire him for that.

Yes, I agree that Ron is responsible for much of our current plight. We also have to look at ourselves though. As fans we need a heavy dose of realism. The club is in a financial mess which it may never recover from. Fantasies and dreams are very nice but we must accept where we are and what we are. In these type of situations, acceptance and understanding of the problem is the very important first step along the road to solving it. The end goal will be some way off, and that is financial stability, and from that, control of our own destiny. Wouldn't that be worth making some sacrifices to achieve?
 

Ghost of C.F.

Ghost of Christmas Future
Joined
Jan 23, 2021
Messages
118
Location
Rochford
It would make me feel several degrees more than uneasy if we were to sign a player or two while staff remain unpaid. However, it doesn't matter how you or I feel, just try to imagine how the unpaid staff would feel. I sincerely hope that this will not happen.

When you employ staff, the deal is that they work all month and you hope that they will work with honesty and enthusiasm. At the end of the month you pay them, regardless of how you feel they have performed. If you feel they are not up to standard, there are better ways of dealing with this than withholding payment.

As far as budgets and cash flow forecasts are concerned. These need to be based mostly around known factors. You can consider a few ifs and maybes, but most of the thinking has to be solid. If at the end of the exercise you find that your current staffing levels, taken together with your known fixed costs, will exceed your income, then you look at ways to reduce costs. What you don't do is wait until the possibility of not being able to pay staff becomes a reality, which it will if you haven't budgeted correctly.

The idea of solving cash flow problems by employing even more staff could only possibly be considered in the fairy tale world of Southend United. This is something we have done so many times in the past and just look where we are today.

I have absolutely no problem with our CEO. I am quite sure that he is doing his very best with an almost impossible task and I admire him for that.

Yes, I agree that Ron is responsible for much of our current plight. We also have to look at ourselves though. As fans we need a heavy dose of realism. The club is in a financial mess which it may never recover from. Fantasies and dreams are very nice but we must accept where we are and what we are. In these type of situations, acceptance and understanding of the problem is the very important first step along the road to solving it. The end goal will be some way off, and that is financial stability, and from that, control of our own destiny. Wouldn't that be worth making some sacrifices to achieve?
Well said.
 

Murkey_Mouse

President
Joined
Nov 23, 2005
Messages
6,468
Location
Benfleet
That what happen when Jim90 start **** stirring up by spreading rumours without any evidence. I bet the clubs who have members on shrimperzone, might ****ed themselves laughing at Jim90 post.
 

Jim90

Newbie
Joined
May 20, 2012
Messages
22
That what happen when Jim90 start **** stirring up by spreading rumours without any evidence. I bet the clubs who have members on shrimperzone, might ****ed themselves laughing at Jim90 post.
Weird behaviour considering they’re still owed money and it’s pay day again on Thursday
 

JAL

Injury Room
Joined
Oct 23, 2014
Messages
1,235
That what happen when Jim90 start **** stirring up by spreading rumours without any evidence. I bet the clubs who have members on shrimperzone, might ****ed themselves laughing at Jim90 post.
Unless you can prove wrong, its still a rumour/a possibility until proven otherwise.
 
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