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Post-Match Thread and Ratings Southend United 0-3 Norwich City

I thought it summed us up. Huff and puff but woefully inadequate in midfield. Once again the midfield got completely overrun and the tactic of dropping Christophe deeper backfired miserably because it meant McCormack chased even more shadows than normal. Moussa looks shot to pieces, Francis continues to look like a sulking child, McCormack still can't pass a football to a Southend shirt and the 2 loanees at the back were what they said on the tin - 2 kids with a bit about them but a MASS of experience and knowledge needed to gain. Unfortunately we're now the team that has to give them that experience for other teams benefit. Malone was naive for their first 2 goals and Morrison gave the ball away for 2 of them also.

Norwich were organised, summed up by the fact everytime Scannell got near the ball he had 2, if not 3, straight away on him. We looked schoolboy in that department in comparison. Whilst they also had good movement, they looked very shaky at the back, and had a goalkeeper that didn't seem to know what he was doing half the time. With just one decent central midfielder to pull the strings, we'd have upped our chances of winning massively. Unfortunately we don't have that player and don't look like getting that player for many, many months yet.

Ratings:

Mildenhall 7: The one handed stop from a corner in the second half was simply brilliant. Some people around me questioned his part in the 2nd, but I personally think it was one of those flukey goals.

Francis 5.5: Is still in this rut where he has 3 or 4 horror moments every game. Put in a couple of quality balls, but added to them with a couple of stinkers.

Morrison 6: At times looked strong and decent, and at others, all at sea. He'll be a decent enough League 1 or 2 centre half in his career, but he'll get ripped to shreds by anybody with a bit of pace. Made 2 stupendous cross field balls, but at other times looked like he'd never kicked a ball before, echoed by his part in 2 of the goals.

Barrett 6: Made a couple of good blocks but if he was a better defender he wouldn't have needed to make them. I await the 7's & 8's with the word "committed" next to them. Stuart Thurgood was committed - doesn't mean he was very good.

Malone 6: Looks a very slight upgrade on Friend, but another that is no better than Herd. Caught out for a couple of the goals, which can be put down to his small amount of experience, he added little going forward apart from one quality cross. His set pieces were dreadful. He'll no doubt be a decent enough League player, but as with Morrison, we appear to be getting his teething period.

Scannell 6: Huffed and puffed. Everytime he received the ball he was stifled by 2 or 3 yellow shirts. Still showed glimpses of the undoubted ability he has, but still doesn't seem to believe in himself enough.

McCormack 6: As usual he dropped us in more than one mire with his suicidal passing, but he did show good energy. The usual old McCormack for the penalty. Whether he got a small touch on the ball or not, he had no reason to dive in there whatsoever. Petty.

Christophe 7: I actually thought he had a decent enough game tonight. He was certainly better than he has been for weeks and weeks. I'm still not a fan though it has to be said.

Moussa 5: Is in the worst run of form of his career, yet unless Tilly feels Walker can return from his coffin and play there, we're stuck with him drifting around the pitch without doing much or wanting to do much. He's not making things happen himself because he looks totally devoid of confidence.

Barnard 6.5: Apart from the first 10 minutes he had naff all service, but he continued to work hard. Quite how he's got 14 goals this season with the supply he gets, I'm still not sure. Ibehre and him could be a decent partnership. For 4 games anyway.

Ibehre 7.5: I thought he was the best player in a blue shirt tonight. On that showing he's a definite upgrade on Revell, but it's exactly that I suppose - one showing. Unlucky with a stonking effort in the first half, he had an uncanny knack of controlling the impossible. On that display I'd love it if he stayed for longer than the month, but who really knows what'll happen with the embargo after this month....

Subs:

Walker /: Was on for 13 minutes, yet touched the ball about 4 or 5 times. Did produce one moment of quality when he got past his man and put in a decent ball into the box though.

Freedman /: Left winger extraordinaire? Hmm, maybe not.
 
I am hoping this was a bad day in the office against a good side but they out played us after 10 mins, I dont get where Tilson said we matched them for long periods, I think the whole crowd sighed with relief when we went in half time at 0-0. I just felt we sat back and let them control the game

I am never one for having a go at players, as long as I see them trying then I can accept sometimes we can get beaten by better quality sides however whats happened to Frank Moussa, poor guy looks badly short of confidence. I think this level is too high for Scannell IMHO. We missed Laurent tonight, he is a great out ball and though his final ball can be a bit hit and miss he does have quality way beyond other members of the team. New boys were no better or no worse than the rest of the team so its hard to comment on their performance, thankfully Anthony (Snoop-Dog) Grant is back and that will add to the quality in midfield, I think JFC is suspended so least we have some legs back in midfield.

As I say I hope this was just a bad day in the office as another beating by Charlton on Saturday would mean 3 in a row and confidence taking a real hammering
 
Thought we played ok for an hour and missed some chances , notably Scannell early second half. After the first goal was all too predictable I'm afraid.

Mildenhall - 8 - Decent game again , one or two important saves , conceded 3 goals but hardly his fault.

Francis - 6 - Still ok going forward but some shocking defensive lapses which are becoming the norm

Morrison - 7 - Quite an impressive home debut , inexperienced nevertheless.

Barrett - 6 - Usual commitment , past his best.

Malone - 6 - Looks quite decent but inexperience showed

Scannell - 7 - Quite dangerous tonight , unlucky to be subbed.

Christophe - 6 - Worked hard but gave the ball away so many times

Macca - 6 - As per Christophe , no need to dive in for the penalty at the end

Moussa - 5 - Poor game, seems to have lost confidence

Barnard - 6 - Worked hard but little service

Ibehre - 8 - Held the ball up really well , pick of the bunch tonight

Freedman - 5 - Kept giving the ball away when he came on , legs have gone

Walker - 6 - Not on long enough , one good run and chipped cross to the far post
 
What game were some of you watching?

Mildenhall: 6, Average display, not a lot wrong but looked shakey at times.
Francis: 7, One of his better displays. Looked assured.
Barrett: 6.5, Solid, yet unspectacular.
Morrison: 7, Was impressed tonight. Looked good at the back and assured on the ball
Malone: 6.5, Ok... Needs to iron out the kinks but a good enough display.

Now, this is where it fell apart.

Christophe: 5.5, Broke up play well. Couldn't pass water.
Macca: 4.5, everything that fell to him, fell apart. Argued for no apparent reason as well.
Moussa: 5, Poor. Didn't come off for him at all
Scannell: 4.5, If I have to watch him run into one more blind alley, I'll scream.

Jabo: 7, Very impressive debut, held the ball up well, looked to link in a midfield that didn't turn up.
Barnard: 7, Same as Jabo, toiled but to no effect.


Game was won and lost in midfield. Ours didn't turn up and Norwich had Hoolahan, who was simply fantastic.
 
Absolutely dire. Cant pass, no creativity.. lacked everything. Moussa was woeful, Scannell the same but thats to be expected.. Jabo and Barnard only players who looked capable of creating something. Throughout the game, passed the ball about 3 times realising we couldnt create anything, then rolling it back to a defender or Mildenhall to punt up the pitch hoping Jabo would win it.
 
We worked hard for the first hour and matched Norwich. IMHO much of this was due to the work rate of the midfield. However, due to the terrible distribution of the midfield we were knackered after the hour and really struggled to compete after that. I lost count of the number of times we gave the ball away carelessly - a couple of times Macca & Christophe made brilliant challenges and then gave the ball straight back to a yellow shirt in a better position from the one they had just tackled.

Mildy 7 - Did OK, one excellent save, but distribution poor. Nothing he could do about any of the goals.

Francis 6.5 - Didn't have too much to do defensively as everything was down our left or thru the middle. Some excellent balls into the box made up for a poor first half when in possesion.

Malone 6 - Could maybe have cleared the second goal rather than just deflect it in (it was going in anyway so not an OG). One fantastic cross, but poor set pieces and at times looked a bit overrawed

Barrett 6 - Some good blocks, but didn't enjoy playing vs Holt who out muscled him. First 2 goals were down his channel.

Morrison 6.5 - First half distribution excellent. Looked calm and probably the reason why Macca and Christophe had the ball so much to lose it themselves. Second half not so good. Defended OK.

Christophe & Macca 6 - Dragged us into the game for a while, but ultimately their poor distribution aided our undoing.

Scannell 6.5 - Looked lively and tried to get things going. Still not as good as Laurent has been recently and Mildy missed Laurents height for his clearances. Scannell worked hard though.

Moussa 5 - Poor. Gave the ball away nearly everytime he got it. First touch which is normally so good has disappeared. Tilly needs to have a chat to see whats up!

Barney 7.5 MOTM - Led the line very well. Won headers he had no right to win. One excellent pass to send scannell through. Should maybe have scored one of 2 good chances by his standards.

Jabo 6.5 - Drifted in an out of the game. Didn't look to get in the 6 yard box and didn't look to get on the end of any long balls. However, one excellent shot which nearly put us one up. Saying all that, big improvement on the Dougie of late.

Subs, Dougie 5 and Walker 6

Ref 7 - I couldnt see why our goal was disallowed, but the Norwich players clearly thought there was a handball. Penalty I have seen on SSN and it was stone wall. Dont know why Macca told Tilly he got the ball. Other than those, he controlled the game well - although I would have liked to see Norwichs 14, 16 and 33 booked for play acting and Holt sent off for persistant moaning.
 
Haven't read the ratings above, but lets be honest we all thought we were going to get beat tonight, It was just the manner of defeat that upset me. We were no way three goals worse that Norwich today. The first half was even, and so was the second half. They had 2 shots on target and scored them both, plus the penalty. I have always been paid on time, in any job I've worked. And if I hadn't been, I'm pretty sure I would have given much less than 100%. The players gave their all tonight, including the 3 loanees, so we cant be too despondent about tonights result. We have the bare minimum in terms of players. To stay in this division its games like our nest one against Hartlepool that we need to be winning. Considering what Tilly had to choose from tonight, I think it was a good effort, and on a different day the score could have been different
 
the lino on the west stand side was a ****

grant holt was a ****

the ref was a bit of a ****

macca was rubbish

jabo looked alright. never gonna score any goals but holds the ball up well

walker showed why he cant get a start

they were not 3 goals better than us.

Apart from the bullet header he scored then?

And a first time volley well saved. Hey ho!
 
Not going to say too much, thought we were undone by bad luck, some strange decisions and some good finishing. Norwich were not THAT good and we were not THAT bad. I've seen better teams play us this season and seen us play lots worse than that.......several times. Please, please, please can we keep a defender BACK at corners and such like, we should not be relying on a CM to do this role - and that's not just cos of what happened last night, have felt same for a long time, when it's usually been Grant and Macca.

I think some people are being over critical, as usual, and picking on scapegoats, also as usual. We seem to have forgotten how these players play when motivated.

Mildy - 7, haven't seen the replays but don't think there was anything he could do, some good saves and some confident handling - no sign of shakiness as far as I was concerned
Francis - 5, sorry, I'd much rather see him playing RW, Grant at RB and O'Keefe start on Saturday
Morrison - 6, confident heading and strong but he has the inexperience of youth that can easily be exploited, seriously worry about him with Franno to his side
Barrett - 6, some awesome blocking but struggled with the Norwich forwards all night
Malone - 7, pick of defence for me, like the guy, reminds me of Mulgrew but more positional awareness
Scannell - 7, always looks a danger on the ball but absolutely has to be aware of which team mates are around him, usually in better places
Macca - 6, lots of effort and some very good passing which largely goes unnoticed cos all you lot are looking for are the bad ones, getting forward lots although why was he last man? Again, haven't seen replays but didn't think it looked a pen
Jeff - 6, did ok I thought, opposition players don't like his style of challenge, prefer him playing as he was just in front of defence
Moussa - 6, better than of late, surprised to see him subbed, and more so that O'Keefe didn't come on in his place
Barney - 6, quiet game for Barney, don't like him playing the deeper of the 2 forwards
Ibehre - 6, looked strong at times, lack of understanding with others which they need to work on, promising though

Subs:
Walker for Scannell - 6, expected but pointless really, no comparison for excitement on the run
Freedman for Moussa - 5, challenges down Norwich's right had been strong all night, not the place for Dougie to go

Officials - 4, good 1st half, don't know what happened in the 2nd. Ibehre was all but strangled in the lead up to the 2nd, not given by the lino on the west which lead directly to the pass to the gs I think. "Goal" looked good, didn't see the lino give it nor how the ref could have ruled it. Holt was a ****, should've gone for the amount of dissent let alone anything else.

TBV - 9, well done lads
 
Not going to say too much, thought we were undone by bad luck, some strange decisions and some good finishing. Norwich were not THAT good and we were not THAT bad. I've seen better teams play us this season and seen us play lots worse than that.......several times. Please, please, please can we keep a defender BACK at corners and such like, we should not be relying on a CM to do this role - and that's not just cos of what happened last night, have felt same for a long time, when it's usually been Grant and Macca.

I think some people are being over critical, as usual, and picking on scapegoats, also as usual. We seem to have forgotten how these players play when motivated.

Mildy - 7, haven't seen the replays but don't think there was anything he could do, some good saves and some confident handling - no sign of shakiness as far as I was concerned
Francis - 5, sorry, I'd much rather see him playing RW, Grant at RB and O'Keefe start on Saturday
Morrison - 6, confident heading and strong but he has the inexperience of youth that can easily be exploited, seriously worry about him with Franno to his side
Barrett - 6, some awesome blocking but struggled with the Norwich forwards all night
Malone - 7, pick of defence for me, like the guy, reminds me of Mulgrew but more positional awareness
Scannell - 7, always looks a danger on the ball but absolutely has to be aware of which team mates are around him, usually in better places (Macca perhaps? - will need to see the replay but thought Macca was not up with Scannell when he missed)
Macca - 6, lots of effort and some very good passing which largely goes unnoticed cos all you lot are looking for are the bad ones, getting forward lots although why was he last man? Again, haven't seen replays but didn't think it looked a pen ( no need to make a risky tackle either way and he'd got on the wrong side of the officials again - with a needless dive , off the ball challenge on one of their players and numerous badly timed tackles- fast becoming a real liability - shame you can't see this )
Jeff - 6, did ok I thought, opposition players don't like his style of challenge, prefer him playing as he was just in front of defence
Moussa - 6, better than of late, surprised to see him subbed, and more so that O'Keefe didn't come on in his place ( no he wasn't - he was woeful - he clearly is not giving us any outlet down the left and Tilly needs to change this fast)
Barney - 6, quiet game for Barney, don't like him playing the deeper of the 2 forwards
Ibehre - 6, looked strong at times, lack of understanding with others which they need to work on, promising though

Subs:
Walker for Scannell - 6, expected but pointless really, no comparison for excitement on the run
Freedman for Moussa - 5, challenges down Norwich's right had been strong all night, not the place for Dougie to go

Officials - 4, good 1st half, don't know what happened in the 2nd. Ibehre was all but strangled in the lead up to the 2nd, not given by the lino on the west which lead directly to the pass to the gs I think. "Goal" looked good, didn't see the lino give it nor how the ref could have ruled it.

He punched it in with his fist

Holt was a ****, should've gone for the amount of dissent let alone anything else. What has happenend to the swear filter circumvention?

TBV - 9, well done lads



!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
What swear filter circumvention? The whole word comes up as asterisks if you type it in, circumvention is when you, yourself take it upon yourself to change a couple of letters so it's obvious what the word is.

Were you at Tranmere or Yeovil? If so you'd know that Moussa last night was clearly better than on either of those occasions. If Ibehre used his fist why wasn't he booked, and if that was a pen, why wasn't Macca booked? As I said I haven't seen replays just my impression at the time.

Scannell does this repeatedly, and has to a number of players, most often Barney. As to Macca getting on the wrong side of officials, well, he does, doesn't he? Shame the guy ran into his elbow as it goes, but didn't think he had a lot of option but to make the challenge in the box.
 
I agree (more or less) with Tilly's assessment this week. It could have been different and we weren't awful. Scannell should at least have got his shot on target - if he had I am pretty sure he would have scored - and I was surprised that Barney didn't get on the end of Franno's fantastic ball in. They finished their chances beautifully and we didn't. They had that bit of extra quality that we didn't have.

I agree with OBL that Malone did quite well in terms of his positional play (despite the mistakes leading to two of the goals) but Herd gives so much more from dead ball situations and in attack. Morrison looks promising too - tall and strong if a bit raw. However, I don't agree with the praise that is being heaped on Ibere. He had no understanding with Barney whatsoever and his movement was unimaginative, predictable and slow. He held up the ball reasonably well at times but it rarely came to anything.
 
Mildy 7.5 Could have moved for the second but apart from that was solid and caught everything and made somegood saves
Francis 7 Crossing was good but defensively could have been better, still his crossing was needed on the right
Morrison 7.5 Won headers and tackles, caught out once or twice being out of position but he's yound and not been here long so should be a good player
Barrett 7.5 Good game from the captain, won every tackle and every header that came his way as well as going forward
Malone 8 Impressive, inexperience showed at times but made some good touches and runs which Moussa should have used more on the overlap
Scannell 6.5 Quick and energetic but never really went anywhere in the end, frustrating but not a bad performance
JFC 5.5 Poor, nothing seemed to be under his control, I think the (nearly) own goal shot dented his confidence and never recovered.
Macca 5.5 Awful tonight, does the hard work winning the ball and dribbling and then gives it straight to the opposition and then tackling wasn't as good as normal
Moussa 7 Needs to get back in form, some good runs but should never have been taken off, not his best performance
Barney 7.5 Energetic but had to drop very deep to get the ball so couldn't make runs in behind the back line and wasn't the usual threat he is
Ibehre 7.5 Good debut, few nice flicks and tricks, held the ball up and laid it off but you could tell it was his first game with these players
Subs
Walker 6 Didn't make 1 challenge in the time he was on and didn't use his pace as much as some would have expected
Freedman 4 Sorry Dougie. I'm a fan of him but tonight was awful. For him to replace Moussa and then get caught for pace or give the ball away every time was disappointing and signalled the end of the great player Dougie Freedman after the last few weeks.

Tilly and Brush 7 Good signings made but bizarre subs may have been a waste
TBV 6.5 Been much louder, in TBV section it sounded great but never spread around the stadium at all
Ref 6 Expected better, how he thought he could disallow the goal from there when the linesman had given a goal and no one apart from their keeper thought it was a handball was beyond me and wasn't sure on the pen but didn't have the best view. Didn't give any pushes and should have sent the ****** Holt off for some reason, not because he should have been given a red, just because he's a ****
 
Think I must have been watching a different game to some people -

Mildy - 8
Francis - 6
Morrison - 7
Barrett - 7
Malone - 6.5
Scannell - 5
Macca - 7
Christophe 7
Moussa - 5.5
Barnard - 6.5
Ibhere - 7

Im with you on all mate except Francis I would give a 5 too.

Scannell I blame largely for the defeat after he blazed over when it was easier to score. Barney laid it on a plate for him and if he scored when it was easier to do that than miss then we could have attempted to shut up shop.

Christophe I thought bar a bit of distribution was excellent and I thought Macca was fairly decent too. Think he just get slated for the sake of it.

Both Jabo and Bareny did well without doing a lot.

All in all they were a lot better than us and it showed on the night when they stepped into a 2nd gear we dont have.
 
What swear filter circumvention? The whole word comes up as asterisks if you type it in, circumvention is when you, yourself take it upon yourself to change a couple of letters so it's obvious what the word is. Thank you - I understand this now - naively I thought it was intended to reduce the posts being splattered with expletives.

Were you at Tranmere or Yeovil? No .If so you'd know that Moussa last night was clearly better than on either of those occasions. I'll have to take your word for that then but I am beginning to doubt your objectivity in view of your one-sided views on Macca. If Ibehre used his fist why wasn't he booked - Should have been , and if that was a pen, why wasn't Macca booked? - again sounds like he was lucky not to get sent off which would have resulted in a ban and adds to my feeling that it was a daft risk to take when the game was clearly lost As I said I haven't seen replays just my impression at the time.

Scannell does this repeatedly, and has to a number of players, most often Barney. As to Macca getting on the wrong side of officials, well, he does, doesn't he? Shame the guy ran into his elbow as it goes - what an awful comment - he puts his team under unnecessary pressure by this repeated lack of discipline , but didn't think he had a lot of option but to make the challenge in the box - The game was effectively over and as said above he was lucky not to get suspended.

Not everything is black and white eh OBL ?!
 
Mildenhall 8
Francis 6.5
Barrett 7.5
Morrison 6.5
Malone 7
Moussa 3 (woeful should of been sub'd at half time)
Jeff 8.5 MOM
Macca 7
Scannell 7.5
Jabo-Jab-Jab 7.5
Barnard 7

Subs
Freedman 1 - pointless
Walker 4 - almost pointless
 
Very poor display tonight. We barely strung any passes together for the whole match. The lads tried their best but Norwich are in form at the moment and were much better than us on the night. We have so little flair and creativity in our team, if Barney doesn't score, then it seems like no-one will. Demoralising defeat that could signal the start of a long, hard month for us.

Mildy 7 - a few great saves, still feel like half his goal kicks go straight off for throw ins

Malone 5 - Poor set pieces, did put in 1 amazing cross in the 2nd half that nobody attacked
Barrett 6 - Struggled against Holt
Morrison 7 - Pick of the defence, looked a decent defender, looking forward to seeing more of him
Franno 6 - Some lovely crosses, still can't defend though

Moussa 4 - Awful, looks like a different player from the start of the season
Macca 5 - Very quiet, always seemed like there were big gaps in the centre of the park. Stupid, stupid challenge for the pen
JFC 6 - Better than recent weeks, distribution is still poor
Scannell 6 - Tried his best to make thingd happen but still don't think he is upto scratch

Jabo 7 - Really impressed, held the ball up well and brought other into play, had a goal ruled out
Barney 6 - No service at all, tried hard but wasn't his night

Walker 5 - Ineffective
Freedman 4 - Used to love him but gets worse every single game, bottled a few aerial challenges and kept giving the ball away when he wasn't even under pressure.


Why 4? from where i was sat East stand, he had 6 touches of the ball, he gave it away 4 times, almost fell over it once and the 6th touch was when it hit him on the back. He did not attempt to jump for the ball on 2 occasions. The guy has had it, he is finished, i would give him -1. I agree with your other ratings, however, i don't think they were 3 goals better than us. The 1st goal? how many times do we tell kids "never pass across the face of your own goal"? That lead up to their 1st.
 
Post your match reports and ratings here please.

Ugh.

Norwich first team Squad

1 Michael Theoklitos Goalkeeper
2 Jon Otsemobor Defender
3 Adam Drury Defender
4 Matthew Gill Midfielder
5 Michael Nelson Defender
6 Russell Martin
(on loan from Peterbr ) Defender
7 Owain Tudur Jones Midfielder
8 Stephen Hughes Midfielder
9 Grant Holt Striker
10 Jamie Cureton Striker
11 Simon Whaley
(on loan to Bradfrd ) Midfielder
12 Gary Doherty Defender
13 Declan Rudd Goalkeeper
14 Wesley Hoolahan Midfielder
15 Michael Spillane Defender
16 Chris Martin Striker
17 Tom Adeyemi Midfielder
18 Paul McVeigh Midfielder
19 Simon Lappin Midfielder
20 Darel Russell Midfielder
21 Fraser Forster
(on loan from Newcstl ) Goalkeeper
22 Rhoys Wiggins Defender
24 Anthony McNamee
(on loan from Swindon ) Midfielder
25 Luke Daley Striker
26 David Stephens Defender
27 Cody McDonald Striker
28 Samuel Habergham Defender
29 Danny Kelly Striker
30 Korey Smith Midfielder
32 Goran Maric Striker
33 Jens Berthel Askou Defender
34 Jed Steer Goalkeeper
37 George Francomb Defender
38 Josh Dawkin

SUFC Squad


1 Steve Mildenhall Goalkeeper
2 Simon Francis Defender
3 Scott Malone
(on loan from Wolves ) Defender
4 Jean Francois Christophe Midfielder
5 Sean Morrison
(on loan from Swindon ) Defender
6 Adam Barrett Defender
7 Anthony Grant Midfielder-------On ban.
8 Alan McCormack Midfielder
9 Lee Barnard Striker
10 James Walker Striker
12 Damian Scannell Midfielder
14 Franck Moussa Midfielder
15 Osei Sankofa Defender--------Injured.
16 Dougie Freedman Striker
17 Jabo Ibehre
(on loan from MK Dons ) Striker
18 Johnny Herd Defender-------- Injured
20 Jean Yves Mvoto
(on loan from Sndrlnd ) Defender-------- Injured
22 Stuart O'Keefe Midfielder
24 Ian Joyce Goalkeeper
26 Francis Laurent---------------------Injured

*Sigh*
Says it all really, how on earth are we meant to compete with clubs that could fill a bench 3 times over, and have options all over the park to bring on when some starters in there side drop below a certain standered.
 
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