Post-Match Thread and Ratings Southend United 2-0 Colchester United

[londonblue]

I'll be proper piffed off with a trouncing in Leyton, regardless of the league table that suggests a hammering for us.
Absolutely love smashing the O's, but we have no right other than the form guide...

Indeed. The form table is most definitely on our side. Even so, I can't help but be pessimistic about this one.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

ps No Klass today on the bench. Was MM just unimpressed with his performance v Mansfield or was he injured?

To answer my own question it was because of covid.

 

[RHB]

To answer my own question it was because of covid.

I find that talking to myself often provides the best answers and it looks as if you have also discovered that skill Yorkie.

 

[mfurok]

You do make me smile.

You’ve somehow tried to turn this around from being MMs biggest critic and the person with the most negative outlook on his work to using the situation to somehow demonstrate that you were right all along and MM has somehow followed your advice ?

Whilst the match day tactics have evolved this only demonstrates to me just how little experience you must have on the inside workings of a football club at any level let alone elite.

The “process” and the “project” really has about as much to do with matchday tactics as I had in loading Santa’s sleigh with my 4 year olds presents!

The project and process was about the culture of the football club. The mentality of the players. The training ethics. The timekeeping. The diets. The pre training approach and the pre match approach as well as post game and post training (of all staff not just the players). Did the players follow their re hab programmes as well as their pre hab (injury prevention) programmes diligently and conscientiously. The expectation levels the staff have of the players and the players have of the staff had to change and the demands placed on the expected levels of their performances on the grass, at boots and laces more than at any stadium, had to increase.

This takes time and lots of it, and before anyone gets too ahead of themselves it’s about 15% along the line at the moment. Most importantly it takes characters of a certain type to be in and around your club. In your dressing room. On your training pitch. In your ear and most definitely in the ear of the other players who may not be as experienced or as professional. These players are the ones that reiterate the message. Really hammer it homey day in and day out.

Players like John White, Alan McCormack, Mark Oxley and JD are playing a huge part in the project and the process. Even the likes of Tim Dieng are playing their part and before anyone points out these players were already at the club, it’s the manager and the strength in nos that’s making the difference. These players aren’t being distracted by more powerful influences in the dressing room, they are becoming the majority and are becoming THE powerful influences.

Even early season, these players weren’t on the grass and maybe they didn’t quite trust what MM was bringing to the table at the all important part which is around the club away from the grass. It wasn’t like he was a proven manager with a track record of turning clubs around coming in that they would all immediately fall in line for. These players had seen Bond and Campbell and were rightly sceptical.

Even the loan signings were vital to get right. Players coming in from football clubs that already had a process in place. Players that had the good habits that clubs higher up the pyramid breed in their 8 year olds and ensure are of the highest order by the time they are given pro contracts. Recruitment and education of your players is as much about attitude and ethics as it is about their ability - as we have found?

The process and the project is about all of these things and it’s about how this affects the players that are not the most influential but the most influenced.....

You can criticise some of our younger players that found life tough at Southend but look at the environment we were asking them to flourish in. 5 managers in 24 months. No strategy. Definitely no PROCESS. Talking in riddles. Not talking to them at all.

The senior pros whose responsibility it was to nurture them, to chastise them, to teach them, to bollock them, to make it hard for them to break through so it meant something when they did and most importantly to carry them through games and through periods in games where it was tough and to let them open their wings and fly when it was going well.....just as senior pros had done to them in their youth....let them down, by not showing the right example themselves.

These players like Kelman and Hutchinson needed Alan McCormack three years ago. They needed two more John Whites and two more JDs. They needed a fit and motivated Dieng, a confident Oxley....they got a permanently injured JD, Coker and Mantom, they got a Tom Hopper on the treatment table not a Tom Hopper who could’ve been the best striker in the division, they got a demotivated McLaughlin, a Simon Cox taking care of himself....the list goes on.

The project and the process isn’t wanting and trying to play one way because you’ve assessed the threadbare inexperienced squad that are technically blessed but lacking the leadership physicality and minerals required to play in league 2. It isn’t realising that the players at your disposal right now can really only play one way and that’s to try and use that technical ability and hope it isn’t ruthlessly exposed and it’s not changing the Matchday tactics slightly and being more direct once you have a few more players at your disposal that can carry out that game plan more adequately than others had been able to.

No the project and the process is all the other stuff and turning the mentality of a football club that’s known nothing but losing for pretty much 3 maybe 4 seasons around into one that has some belief and some direction and an identity and strength to match its fanbase.

My bet is you’ll see the return of some different match day tactics over the course of MMs contract that return to a more cultured style of football. That’ll be all part of the project and process that he talks about. But it’s a long long road....right now is a short term way of overcoming some rather large bumps not the end goal.

The project still isn’t achieving it’s objectives though is it?

Probably would have been better to concentrate on the objective of football matches - to score more goals than the opposition.

 

[OllieSteph44]

The project still isn’t achieving it’s objectives though is it?

Probably would have been better to concentrate on the objective of football matches - to score more goals than the opposition.

Cor you’re struggling for something negative to say when you’re quoting posts from Pre Xmas.

I thought the objectives were improvements...and staying up. Points wise, results wise, player wise, morale wise, defensively, strength in depth wise we seem to be meeting the improvement objective.

We don’t yet know if we’ll stay up but time will tell.

The thing is with improvement is that it can’t be measured by someone playing the finite game. A fixed term, with fixed measurements and a finishing time / date. Improvement, is unfortunately for you, an infinite game which is ongoing and sees lots of ups and downs.

Zoom out fella zoom out a little ???

 

[mfurok]

Cor you’re struggling for something negative to say when you’re quoting posts from Pre Xmas.

I thought the objectives were improvements...and staying up. Points wise, results wise, player wise, morale wise, defensively, strength in depth wise we seem to be meeting the improvement objective.

We don’t yet know if we’ll stay up but time will tell.

The thing is with improvement is that it can’t be measured by someone playing the finite game. A fixed term, with fixed measurements and a finishing time / date. Improvement, is unfortunately for you, an infinite game which is ongoing and sees lots of ups and downs.

Zoom out fella zoom out a little ???

Sadly I have zoomed out.

To use the management consultancy jargon of MM,

You are right that the objective of the project is to stay up and performance against that objective can be measured.

Hence my comment that the project still isn’t achieving it’s objectives. We are still in extremely grave danger of relegation and the dire mistakes that continue to be made by the project leader continue to be rectified too slowly

Improvement is not an objective but an absolutely necessary part of the process required to achieve the objective, which can only be achieved if we win more points than any two other teams in the worst division in the Football League. To do this we must score goals and the project continues to make scoring goals more difficult not easier.

The necessary Improvement on Sol's work needed to achieve the objective should not have been difficult but boy does it take time for the penny to drop with MM.

To use the common sense approach

In order to stay up we probably need at least 47 points - another 18 points at least.

Six wins from 13 games or 5 wins and 3 draws or 4 wins, 6 draws and only 3 defeats.

Do you think that the project is on course?

 

[OllieSteph44]

Sadly I have zoomed out.

I think you have been a victim of autocorrect.

I said ‘zoomed out’ which would mean you take a look at the bigger picture over a longer period of time.

I think you meant to type ‘zoned out’ which would mean you’ve given up hope and are fixated on whatever negative is most current.

Hence my comment that the project still isn’t achieving it’s objectives. We are still in extremely grave danger of relegation and the dire mistakes that continue to be made by the project leader continue to be rectified too slowly

The short term objective is staying up. Yes that’s right....that in football terms is the short term. The longer term objective is improvement....in the entire set up and running of the business and football performances.

However, of course, in order to meet the short term objective of staying up we need to make some improvements quickly. However take the season as a whole that has been achieved already...take Xmas until February (considerably short term) and again it’s been achieved.

I agree there is a real danger of still being relegated, but this is largely down to the speed in which the current manager was allowed to make the improvements needed...ie lifting the embargo and being given the opportunity to move players out before moving others in. He’s done that under considerable restraints I’m sure you’ll agree? One of those restraints and a highly credible one is the fact there are limited opportunities (transfer windows) and considerable lack of ability (funds, owner, attractiveness of the football club in general) to bring the required players into the club. For example if anyone on here clamouring for a proven goalscorer thinks that MM doesn’t know that himself, they are deluded. But bringing them in is a different matter altogether! It’s surely a problem that he’s recognised and surely even for the most ignorant among us, it even partially explains the decision tactically to focus on not conceding goals giving us the best possible chance of picking up points either by drawing 0-0 or requiring minimal goals to actually win a game. Surely given the general acceptance of our dire goalscoring ability no one wants us to be in situations where we need 3 or even 4 goals to achieve what we currently need 0 or 1 to achieve?

So is he really learning too slowly or has he done all he can within the windows and is now left making the best of what he has at his disposal with the best tactical plan he can use given the dearth of abilities in the area everyone knows (inc the manager) is the problem? Who would you play up front? How many risks of conceding more goals than you felt you were capable of scoring would you take?

Improvement is not an objective but an absolutely necessary part of the process required to achieve the objective, which can only be achieved if we win more points than any two other teams in the worst division in the Football League. To do this we must score goals and the project continues to make scoring goals more difficult not easier.

Surely improvement is an objective? How can it not be? Not an improvement in style but an improvement in performance and results surely an objective of all managers in this situation. As you say, it’s absolutely necessary. However, again, look at the upward curve in points gained. We are now outperforming and picking up more points than several other teams in the division. This makes our current predicament a historical problem not so much a current one....which means there has been progress.

We are however, gaining more points than other teams despite not scoring goals. Thus making the job easier not harder. Scoring 2/3 goals a game and losing would be much harder than picking up 0-0s surely that’s obvious? The fact that the team continue to create enough chances to win games whilst still not conceding is surely proof that the manager is actually getting things right tactically with only individual performance maybe being the teams downfall?

The necessary Improvement on Sol's work needed to achieve the objective should not have been difficult but boy does it take time for the penny to drop with MM.

Should not have been difficult? Are you serious? Sol worked under considerable restraints but MM initially had to then work under the same, with the additional loss of some key players in Humphry’s, Kelman, both of whom had scored goals for Sol. That in itself (rate them or not) was a severe handicap in the strikers department. Add to that the global pandemic and the curtailment of a season that saw players not kick a football from March to July. Who then returned late to training due to a **** poor approach by the owner who fannied around making an appointment, with limited friendlies against thrown together opposition from local (very low level) non league. Lack of fitness and preparation was always (as was predicted by several more knowledgable posters) going to result in being off the pace through August, September and October. This is surely where the damage was done.

o use the common sense approach

In order to stay up we probably need at least 47 points - another 18 points at least.

Six wins from 13 games or 5 wins and 3 draws or 4 wins, 6 draws and only 3 defeats.

Not true. There is no telling what points total is needed to stay up. You said it yourself, we need to have more points than two other teams. Like it or not, their performances are as important as our own. Current form is a better indication of what we’ll need to stay up, rather than an arbitrary points total based on previous seasons, none of which bare any resemblance to this unique one.

What we need is to gain maximum of 4 less points from 13 games than Grimsby can from 15 games and 1 more point from 13 games than Barrow can from 15 games. Or of course, we could continue to pick up the same ratio of points as we have for the last 15 games as Colchester and / or Port Vale continue to do the same.....we could end up finishing outside the bottom 4! Keep an eye on Mansfield too btw as despite their previous run of unbeaten form they have recently returned to the sort of form that saw them sack their manager while in the bottom 3.

Do you think that the project is on course?

Absolutely. I defy anyone to prove statistically or otherwise that the improvements aren’t obvious and the upward curve in points based form isn’t better than other sides around us. That in itself demonstrates a path that is ‘on course’ to achieve its objective.

Chin up me old mucker. Glass half full and be positive. It’s a much happier place to be ?

 

[in the know]

I'm glad you ended that with the glass half full olliesteph :)
I'm on the cabernet sauvignon now!
I think as you do, it's still very much more half full still