Stick or Twist?

[Spaceman Spiff]

After the extreme disappointment of last night's game, I have been toying with a number of questions that up to now I have resisted:

1) Is Tilly still the right man for the job?

2) Is Ron's approach to running the club (from a footballing perspective only) likely to yield the results we are desperate for?

There are more questions than this, but these are the fundamental two for me at the moment.

I've read the threads questioning Tilly's abilities with interest, and found myself agreeing with more points than I am comfortable with. I could go into all sorts of detail, but to be honest as none of us really knows any actual detail this would all be conjecture and we could debate it until we're blue in the face but we'll still only be working on outside observations and hypotheses.

So, I'll just summarise the conclusions I've settled on and then open them to the floor:

1) I think we need 6 more wins this season to be safe - from our final 16 games. This is of course a rough guess, but I think 55 points would probably be enough.

2) I still believe Tilly is the right man. I also believe Ron is the right man, and Ricky Duncan too. However our coaching, scouting, transfer completion success rate and tactics leave a lot to be desired.

3) I reckon we'll stay up this year, without covering ourselves in any glory. However a firm plan is needed to address the coaching, scouting and transfer shortcomings of the club and it is needed NOW. This is the only way we'll be able to hit the ground running during the close season and get in players who will plug the severe creativity gaps in our midfield, and finally give us two decent full backs.

4) Next year Tilly needs a big improvement, or for me his time will be up.

What do we do now then and where should the focus be? For me, if we saying that Tilly is right man with the wrong support, the focus should be on Paul Brush, the two other first team coaches and the 'Football Consultant'. The scouting network too, but I'll gloss over that one as it is a whole subject on its own!

Brushy may be a nice guy, and he may get on with Tilly and Ron - but I'm not sure he's actually any good at coaching, motivating and tactics. To be fair, we have no evidence either way - apart from the evidence of our eyes on the pitch, both here and when he was previously at Orient. Tilly needs an experienced, good quality assistant (preferably proven) to support him. They do exist out there and we need to get one in - either an up and coming coach to groom as a successor or an experienced ex-manager who lives locally but isnt planning a return to full management (who might also be able to pass on some tips to Ricky and groom his as a potential future boss). Any suggestions who might be able to fill this role?

Personally I'd also like to involve some ex-players who were made of the right stuff to come in and assist with the training - Paul Clark and David Crown spring to mind, but there are plenty of others too. These guys would be great in the dressing room too - I can certainly imagine Paul Clark geeing up the troops a bit better than Tilly and Brush.

Plenty to chew over. However the crux is I think we need to look at the staff first and fix the shortcomings there (but NOT Tilly at this stage). This needs to be done before the end of this season, so that we can call upon the greater knowledge and ability of our new support staff during the full close season, in order to plug the gaps in the team - and then coach them effectively in pre-season.

 

[fredheim_holm]

Simply put, Stick.

 

[palexander]

Good post SS, while I fundamentally disagree, I do appreciate your points and argument!

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Simply put, Stick.

Thanks Fred, but for reasons in my post (and others), simply 'sticking' alone, i.e. the 'do nothing approach', is probably not enough!

I'm starting to sound like Gordon Brown.... aaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
:thump:

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

By the way, one case in point regarding the coaching is the approach to taking corners - which 'worked so well' against Crewe!

 

[Rootshalle]

Very interesting post SS. In short:

1. Yes he is
2. Yes I think so.
3 Totally agree
4. Disagree on this one, if we get answers to 3. the it won't come into play anyway!? Although you wanted to steer away from it the scouting interested me from the management diagram in RM's blog. Scouting is responsible to RM not ST - I find that odd - probably a purse string issue but the manager should direct scouting. Maybe I'm reading too much rigidy into the diagram.
But what I do know is that we've been relatively successful recently and a mid table position this season is alright, I'd hoped we'd be pressing for playoffs but we're not good enough. But if these people got us up to the Championship once they can do it again - agree sometimes you need to freshen things up with new voices, new ideas. ST should be thinking that through himself. What can he do to achieve that, who can he bring in - not who should be brought in to work with him. Rob Newman / Stewart Robson anyone? Remember that.

 

[Rootshalle]

oops got me numbering all wrong! 55pts should be enough...

I'll get me coat....

 

[fredheim_holm]

Thanks Fred, but for reasons in my post (and others), simply 'sticking' alone, i.e. the 'do nothing approach', is probably not enough!

I'm starting to sound like Gordon Brown.... aaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
:thump:

I know I know Spiffster. I didn't really explain my point of view as I guess that many others share it and have heard it many times.

Tilson is a fantastic manager for us, and just the fact we now consider a mid-table League One finish disappointing speaks volumes.

After actually reading your post I thought I'd give my opinion on the 4:
1) 5/6
2) Agreed.
3) Disagree with needing to change fullbacks, agree that we need a creative man in the middle as we all know, but unsure whether our scouting system is really lacking.
4) Disagree (although if we do have a similar season next year I can see Ron getting frustrated).

 

[Richard_Cadette]

Very interesting post SS, and difficult to argue with most of the points you make... difficult, but not impossible :)

One point I will comment on is the coaching, and ni particular, Paul Brush, which you mentioned. I actually have a lot of time for Brushy, and I genuinely believe that a lot of our success was down to him being involved. As a manager, he was not successful, but even the O's fans will tell you when he was coaching with them, he was doing a good job.

One thing I did pick up from them, however, and something which rings true with us, is not having a Plan B should Plan A fail. That is extremely evident with us - if we don't succeed with the team we send out at the beginning, and the tactics, it's incredibly rare that either are changed with any great success. That may not be down to Brushy, but I am sure he must have input on decision during the game.

To almost contradict myself, Brush was interviewed in the close season and spoke at length about how this season we were going to try new things, be a more liquid team, be able to easily change formation, like Doncaster did, to impose ourselves on teams if needed. He also said that the kind of players they were looking for were players who could cover a variety of positions. The evidence of this is that it hasn't worked.

We have players playing out of position, and a lot of players who may be classed as utility players, as opposed to specialities in their field.

Maybe this change of direction only goes to prove that Brushy is a bit of a one trick pony? I don't know, maybe I am being over critical, but we do seem to suffer from an inability to change things for the positive during a game when we are faced with adversity.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

3) Disagree with needing to change fullbacks

Although my post is nothing to do with the playing staff as such (I only mentioned a couple of areas of the team that I feel need to be strengthened to give context to a point about the coaching/scouting), I do need to ask you about this.

Do you really believe our full back options are good enough? For me, Francis has never been consistently good enough (only on the odd game here and there, and even then with severe defensive frailties); Barrett isnt a left back and Sankofa isnt yet good enough to really be part of a League One promotion winning side for 46 games in one season. Hence, he also isnt yet the answer (although he may be in time).

I'm not quite sure how you can say these are enough options at full back - apart from, with all due respect, if you've never seen us be any better in those positions! Those who remember regularly watching the likes of Chris Powell, Dean Austin and Justin Edinburgh (among others) will remember what genuinely good full backs can bring to a team. Ours are certainly no better than competent at best, and personally I would say that is stretching things a bit.

 

[Angell Delight]

Those who remember regularly watching the likes of Chris Powell, Dean Austin and Justin Edinburgh (among others) will remember what genuinely good full backs can bring to a team. Ours are certainly no better than competent at best, and personally I would say that is stretching things a bit.

Fully agree, the likes of Powell especially (and to a lesser extent Austin and Edinburgh) were a cut above anything we've had since. It's a real shame we couldn't have at least signed Harding for a longer spell.

 

[fredheim_holm]

Well, to be fair I've never seen Powell at his best, or Austin/Edinburgh.

Being a relatively new fan (5/6 years) I've not seen a fantastic fullback at the Hall, although Dan Harding & Steve Hammell were both very good for this level.

In my memory I've seen these fullbacks (Ratings for L1 level):
Duncan Juppster - A solid right back that I've always held dear to my heart, not the most gifted mind. ~ 6/10
Che Wilson - Quite the same as the above. ~ 6/10
Nicky Nicolau - Never really rated the lad. ~ 4/10
Lewis Hunt - Another solid right back that you knew what to expect with. ~ 4/10
Steve Hammell - A player that's better than league one, a good freekick and cross and pretty solid going back. ~ 8/10
Charlie Mulgrew - Quality freekick taker but not the best defensively, albeit he did improve. 7.5/10
Simon Francis - I still rate Simon, although he clearly has big flaws to his game. Playing at right mid may be the solution. ~ 6/10
Osei Sankofa - Really come on leaps and bounds in my view, didn't rate him at all to start with but now he's one of the most consistent performers in the side. In the Jupp/Wilson mould for me, although he seems to have more ability. ~ 6.5/10
Dan Harding - The best left back I've seen, never dived in and never got skinned, easily CCC quality. ~ 8.5/10
Johnny Herd - Good potential and reasonably current ability, not slow in the run and not bad in the air despite his size. Confident going forward and a good long throw. ~ 6/10

I agree we need more at left back to challenge for promotion, either backup for a slightly improved Herd or someone to take the spot on in the first 11. Right back satisfies me, Sanks is someone who regularly puts in his shift, you know what you'll get. Francis on the other hand, more ability but unpredictable, a nice combination for me although as I said above Francis does need to improve areas of his game.

Apologies for changing the view on the thread, just my twopence.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

Chrissy Powell..10/10

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Very interesting post SS, and difficult to argue with most of the points you make... difficult, but not impossible :)

One point I will comment on is the coaching, and ni particular, Paul Brush, which you mentioned. I actually have a lot of time for Brushy, and I genuinely believe that a lot of our success was down to him being involved. As a manager, he was not successful, but even the O's fans will tell you when he was coaching with them, he was doing a good job.

One thing I did pick up from them, however, and something which rings true with us, is not having a Plan B should Plan A fail. That is extremely evident with us - if we don't succeed with the team we send out at the beginning, and the tactics, it's incredibly rare that either are changed with any great success. That may not be down to Brushy, but I am sure he must have input on decision during the game.

To almost contradict myself, Brush was interviewed in the close season and spoke at length about how this season we were going to try new things, be a more liquid team, be able to easily change formation, like Doncaster did, to impose ourselves on teams if needed. He also said that the kind of players they were looking for were players who could cover a variety of positions. The evidence of this is that it hasn't worked.

We have players playing out of position, and a lot of players who may be classed as utility players, as opposed to specialities in their field.

Maybe this change of direction only goes to prove that Brushy is a bit of a one trick pony? I don't know, maybe I am being over critical, but we do seem to suffer from an inability to change things for the positive during a game when we are faced with adversity.

Good point, RC - I remember that interview. You're right, if that was the plan for this season it does appear to have failed spectacularly! On balance, the points you raise add to my conviction that Tilly needs to consider whether he has the right support. I note your point about it being Tilly who should be looking at this and proposing any changes to Ron, rather than Ron taking the bull by the horns and imposing changes. Couldnt agree more.

That also makes me wonder just how much input Tilly had on the appointment of the Consultant? Did he want one? Did he want this one? Does he think it is helping/working?