The development of youth

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Some mention was made on the 'Well done Crewe' thread, concerning their Academy and ability to bring young players through to the First team but I really think that it deserves a bit more attention and discussion.
There are many plaudits rightfully handed out to Ricky Duncan for the sterling job he does in our youth academy, yet when we search for fruition of his work, the results are less evident. I think that Ferdinand was the only youth player to feature in the first leg against Crewe and his performance didn't allow him to keep his place. I'm not one that retains information that easily and thinking back to players who made the successful transition from our Youth to First team, the only one that comes to mind is Moussa........I'm sure others will put me right on this.
Doing a brief bit of research into Crewe I found that no less than EIGHT of the side that started against us on Wednesday, came from their Academy (two who had been released and then returned) and their important substitute Clayton had the same pedigree. Again names fail me (wasn't there Savage?) but this is not a new phenomena and a list of successful professional players began their footballing lives in the Crewe Academy.
So there are a number of questions apart from, is there something in the water in that part of Cheshire? Is the system in Crewe that much better than ours? Is it due to a lack of confidence at managerial level, to give responsibility and opportunity to youth players? How do Crewe manage to hang on to their promising talent, when our best prospects leave for Liverpool, Fulham etc........is it due to the fact that they see little prospect of breaking through to our First team?
When you see the positive results in Crewe's 'Faith in Youth' policy I can't help thinking that other teams must look on with envy and pose the question.........Why can't we do that?.......so why don't they??? It also appears to me a no brainer and a bonus, in these cash strapped times, that developing home grown talent is economic good sense. So, in brief, is there anything for us to learn and utilise from the Crewe method of developing youth?

 

[Onion_Bag_Dave]

They've been developing youngsters for a long time.

Whilst they've proved you can do it. It's also quite difficult to blood youngsters when the aim is to get out of League two. This wasn't or didn't seem possible at one time for Crewe to get in the playoffs, turns out it's happened.

League 1 is the place to put the youngsters in at the deep end.

 

[Beefy]

I don't think we should be comparing our youth output to Crewe's and then criticising ourselves. Crewe are an abnormality. That club is all about youth development, they've built a reputation on it and (I'm sure) it works in their favour when talented kids around that part of the country are assessing who to join.

How does our youth set up compare with other similar sized clubs?

 

[C C Csiders]

I don't think we should be comparing our youth output to Crewe's and then criticising ourselves. Crewe are an abnormality. That club is all about youth development, they've built a reputation on it and (I'm sure) it works in their favour when talented kids around that part of the country are assessing who to join).

How does our youth set up compare with other similar sized clubs?

Well our one-eyed, eight-toed neighbours have a good record of bring players through from their youths - Wordsworth, Eastman, White, Coker, Bender

 

[Napster]

I think people forget that youth development is not only recruiting for our team, but developing to sell and raise cash. We've done very well recently in this respect.

 

[Beefy]

Well our one-eyed, eight-toed neighbours have a good record of bring players through from their youths - Wordsworth, Eastman, White, Coker, Bender

Aren't a couple of those from our part of Essex as well?

 

[Onion_Bag_Dave]

Aren't a couple of those from our part of Essex as well?

Could this be because their chairman has money to put into the running of the club etc? Whereas we don't, we have to sell the good ones to make a bit of dough, but Col U can afford to not sell their decent youngsters.

 

[Blue_Shrimper1959]

Crewe have had a system and development scheme in place for a long time, and their success comes from working with players from a very young age- much like the other top academy's across the country. Ricky Duncan and Luke Hobbs set up a new CoE system about 7 years ago, and therefore any players breaking through in recent seasons would've either come in from bigger clubs late on in their development or haven't gone through our whole youth system- which is how the best academies develop their players year on year.

For me the academy will be essential for our club's future, but I would expect us to see the progress made with the real talent in the next 3-4 years or so. The boys who were U7's/U8's when Ricky and Luke came in will be hitting 17/18 in the coming years, and I think we can judge whether the academy is a success based on the quality of player we start producing in this time frame and beyond.

 

[Calvin Candie]

Ricky Duncan has no say what players from the youth team go into 1st team football that decision is with sturrock. And as you can see, he refuses to play youth team players

 

[Blue_Shrimper1959]

Ricky Duncan has no say what players from the youth team go into 1st team football that decision is with sturrock. And as you can see, he refuses to play youth team players

The number of players Sturrock has signed on pro-terms or developmental contracts has been far greater than any previous manager in recent years. This, I would suggest, is on the advice of RD as well as Sturrock's own opinion. A number of these players have been sent out on loan to lower leagues and hardly set the world alight, and presumably haven't impressed in training either.


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I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?mramz1

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

I think people forget that youth development is not only recruiting for our team, but developing to sell and raise cash. We've done very well recently in this respect.

Yes I can understand that but could it be considered a short-sighted approach in that, if we brought through these players on, they could not only prove a benefit to our first team but also accrue a higher fee when they were eventually sold on?

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Crewe have had a system and development scheme in place for a long time, and their success comes from working with players from a very young age- much like the other top academy's across the country. Ricky Duncan and Luke Hobbs set up a new CoE system about 7 years ago, and therefore any players breaking through in recent seasons would've either come in from bigger clubs late on in their development or haven't gone through our whole youth system- which is how the best academies develop their players year on year.


For me the academy will be essential for our club's future, but I would expect us to see the progress made with the real talent in the next 3-4 years or so. The boys who were U7's/U8's when Ricky and Luke came in will be hitting 17/18 in the coming years, and I think we can judge whether the academy is a success based on the quality of player we start producing in this time frame and beyond.

Thanks for that information, will be interesting to see how they develop. It's obvious that this has to be a long-term programme and can't be achieved overnight. I'm pleased to see that we've put something in place and I hope that we will benefit from it in the years to come.

 

[southendkid]

Ricky Duncan has no say what players from the youth team go into 1st team football that decision is with sturrock. And as you can see, he refuses to play youth team players

He still plays Kane, perhaps the reason they don't play is because Sturrock watches them in training and gets reports from teams they are on loan to, and it turns out they aren't ready for league two? People keep moaning our squad is too big, then complain when some youth players are deemed surplus to requirements. What do we actually want?

 

[hockleyeast1964]

i would assume all the money received from selling the players goes straight back into the academy.There are some really good boys coming through playing football the right way.A lot of the 'bigger ' clubs academies play the long ball to 6 ft plus centre forwards bypassing the midfield,whilst we play along the floor.

 

[jono1988]

Hi guys, Crewe fan here.

Thought I would give you an overview of the 'Crewe model'. First things first, we (fortunately or unfortunately depending on your view) don't have a rich chairman (in fact, our main shareholder took a £1m loan out of the club a few years ago, which seems to have disappeared down the back of his sofa) - the investment in the academy is entirely self-funding.

This is not a short-term option. Going right back to the 1980s when Dario first came, we began to invest in our youth setup in very small steps. By the late 1980s/early 1990s we began to be able to develop some decent players, though many were the rejects from Premiership sides (David Platt, Craig Hignett come to mind). As we progressed up the league in the 1990s the investment in the youth setup got bigger and bigger - it was sustainable development as the sale of players funded the expansion of the academy. This was the era of Danny Murphy (£1.5m), Neil Lennon (£1m), Seth Johnson (£3.5m) and, later, Dean Ashton (£3.5m).

The cost of our setup is substantial. If we don't sell players the club loses £500,000 - £1m / year, which means we need to sell a £1.5m player every 2 years to break even. Obviously, it also means that we can fill our side with exciting young players in the meantime, but there is still a lot of pressure to produce that £1.5m player.

As a result of our pedigree, we tend to be able to charge reasonable prices for our players compared to other League 2 clubs. We rarely overcharge (Ashton and Murphy are clearly worth every penny) but it does occasionally happen. Luke Varney for £1.5m a few seasons ago being a good example.

Consequently we've been able to invest heavily in the training facilities - and probably have better facilities than some Prem clubs. For example, see the indoor dome here - http://www.crewealex.net/page/NewsDetail/0,,10414~978697,00.html

This is all well and good when you have a decent side (i.e. the last 18 games) but it's worth mentioning that this model isn't for everybody. Firstly, it takes a lot of time to come to fruition, and requires real patience which most fans (myself included) don't have. Secondly, it's very circular - good young players come and go. We don't always have a very good side (our recent fall from the Championship proves that) and at those times it becomes more difficult to justify the expense of the Academy. I admit myself that I have been known to say things like 'scrap the Academy and sign some old pro in midfield' when times were bad.

So whilst it's all well and good to look on with some jealousy today, the 'Crewe system' really doesn't suit many situations. Besides you need someone like Dario who is prepared to sacrifice his career to build such a system. Yes, it paid dividends this week (with a surprisingly local team; most of the players weren't just north-west lads, but lads from Crewe) but if we don't go up, are forced to sell 3 players and sit in mid-table mediocrity next season then you won't be jealous any more!

This gives an interesting overview, with some quotes from Dario.
http://www.crewealex.net/page/AcademyDetail/0,,10414~65768,00.html

 

[Up the Shrimpers]

Crewe have had a system and development scheme in place for a long time, and their success comes from working with players from a very young age- much like the other top academy's across the country. Ricky Duncan and Luke Hobbs set up a new CoE system about 7 years ago, and therefore any players breaking through in recent seasons would've either come in from bigger clubs late on in their development or haven't gone through our whole youth system- which is how the best academies develop their players year on year.

For me the academy will be essential for our club's future, but I would expect us to see the progress made with the real talent in the next 3-4 years or so. The boys who were U7's/U8's when Ricky and Luke came in will be hitting 17/18 in the coming years, and I think we can judge whether the academy is a success based on the quality of player we start producing in this time frame and beyond.

Sadly I cant see us ever getting Academy status, as the above Crewe fan points out its very expensive to run let alone set one up. Not sure how many League 1 & 2 clubs have an Academy, not many.

Got to get work our new ground started before we can even think of having a youth academy.

 

[WESTY_SUFC]

Hi guys, Crewe fan here.

Thought I would give you an overview of the 'Crewe model'. First things first, we (fortunately or unfortunately depending on your view) don't have a rich chairman (in fact, our main shareholder took a £1m loan out of the club a few years ago, which seems to have disappeared down the back of his sofa) - the investment in the academy is entirely self-funding.

This is not a short-term option. Going right back to the 1980s when Dario first came, we began to invest in our youth setup in very small steps. By the late 1980s/early 1990s we began to be able to develop some decent players, though many were the rejects from Premiership sides (David Platt, Craig Hignett come to mind). As we progressed up the league in the 1990s the investment in the youth setup got bigger and bigger - it was sustainable development as the sale of players funded the expansion of the academy. This was the era of Danny Murphy (£1.5m), Neil Lennon (£1m), Seth Johnson (£3.5m) and, later, Dean Ashton (£3.5m).

The cost of our setup is substantial. If we don't sell players the club loses £500,000 - £1m / year, which means we need to sell a £1.5m player every 2 years to break even. Obviously, it also means that we can fill our side with exciting young players in the meantime, but there is still a lot of pressure to produce that £1.5m player.

As a result of our pedigree, we tend to be able to charge reasonable prices for our players compared to other League 2 clubs. We rarely overcharge (Ashton and Murphy are clearly worth every penny) but it does occasionally happen. Luke Varney for £1.5m a few seasons ago being a good example.

Consequently we've been able to invest heavily in the training facilities - and probably have better facilities than some Prem clubs. For example, see the indoor dome here - http://www.crewealex.net/page/NewsDetail/0,,10414~978697,00.html

This is all well and good when you have a decent side (i.e. the last 18 games) but it's worth mentioning that this model isn't for everybody. Firstly, it takes a lot of time to come to fruition, and requires real patience which most fans (myself included) don't have. Secondly, it's very circular - good young players come and go. We don't always have a very good side (our recent fall from the Championship proves that) and at those times it becomes more difficult to justify the expense of the Academy. I admit myself that I have been known to say things like 'scrap the Academy and sign some old pro in midfield' when times were bad.

So whilst it's all well and good to look on with some jealousy today, the 'Crewe system' really doesn't suit many situations. Besides you need someone like Dario who is prepared to sacrifice his career to build such a system. Yes, it paid dividends this week (with a surprisingly local team; most of the players weren't just north-west lads, but lads from Crewe) but if we don't go up, are forced to sell 3 players and sit in mid-table mediocrity next season then you won't be jealous any more!

This gives an interesting overview, with some quotes from Dario.
http://www.crewealex.net/page/AcademyDetail/0,,10414~65768,00.html

Thanks for your view. Interesting to hear how you view it yourself.

I think that with the way things are going with smaller clubs having less protection to keep their home grown talent the way forward seems to be to pick up good players from non league level or released youth players from the bigger sides and keep spending on youth to a minimum. Thats just my opinion of course.

 

[EastStandBlue]

Sadly I cant see us ever getting Academy status, as the above Crewe fan points out its very expensive to run let alone set one up. Not sure how many League 1 & 2 clubs have an Academy, not many.

Got to get work our new ground started before we can even think of having a youth academy.

"Academy Status" as such is abolished as of next season as clubs are re-categorised as per the Elite Player Performance Plan. The old Academy status roughly translates as Category 2 of 4, which requires a specific amount of investment. Category 1, for instance, requires an operational budget of £2.5m p/a and 18 full-time staff. As it stands, I think only 16 Premier League clubs qualify for Category One, with Southampton likely to qualify also.

Category 2 requires an operational budget of circa £950k p/a and an indoor training facility, something which very few clubs have (most will merely rent one when necessary, like we've done in the past when the weather's stopped us from training). I don't think a single League One/Two club will qualify for Category 2, as the clubs expected to qualify for this are of the Ipswich, Hull, Wigan size.

Category 3, roughly equivalent to the old Centre of Excellence status, still requires an annual operational budget of £315k, something I think we just fall short of. We plough around £250k per year into the youth development programme (at least that was the figure last quoted, I strongly suspect it may have come down by now), which means we'll be left in the last category. We won't be able to approach youngsters until they're 16 years old and we'll have to give access to any youngsters that impress to Category 1-3 clubs, with a pre-set amount of compensation awarded to us, doing away with the tribunal process.

Without significant outside investment or an upturn in our fortunes on the pitch, we won't be qualifying for Category 3 any time soon. Any player who has impressed for us under the age of 16 is likely to be poached by any one of the Cat 1/2/3 clubs. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's a serious re-think as to our youth development policy over the summer.

This is why it's been thoroughly important for us to develop close links with Premier League clubs in our area. Through cooperating with them, we're far more likely to be tipped off or recommended to 16 year olds who don't quite cut the grade at Premier League level and, as such, will become available to Category 4 clubs upon their release.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Hi guys, Crewe fan here.

Thought I would give you an overview of the 'Crewe model'. First things first, we (fortunately or unfortunately depending on your view) don't have a rich chairman (in fact, our main shareholder took a £1m loan out of the club a few years ago, which seems to have disappeared down the back of his sofa) - the investment in the academy is entirely self-funding.

This is not a short-term option. Going right back to the 1980s when Dario first came, we began to invest in our youth setup in very small steps. By the late 1980s/early 1990s we began to be able to develop some decent players, though many were the rejects from Premiership sides (David Platt, Craig Hignett come to mind). As we progressed up the league in the 1990s the investment in the youth setup got bigger and bigger - it was sustainable development as the sale of players funded the expansion of the academy. This was the era of Danny Murphy (£1.5m), Neil Lennon (£1m), Seth Johnson (£3.5m) and, later, Dean Ashton (£3.5m).

The cost of our setup is substantial. If we don't sell players the club loses £500,000 - £1m / year, which means we need to sell a £1.5m player every 2 years to break even. Obviously, it also means that we can fill our side with exciting young players in the meantime, but there is still a lot of pressure to produce that £1.5m player.

As a result of our pedigree, we tend to be able to charge reasonable prices for our players compared to other League 2 clubs. We rarely overcharge (Ashton and Murphy are clearly worth every penny) but it does occasionally happen. Luke Varney for £1.5m a few seasons ago being a good example.

Consequently we've been able to invest heavily in the training facilities - and probably have better facilities than some Prem clubs. For example, see the indoor dome here - http://www.crewealex.net/page/NewsDetail/0,,10414~978697,00.html

This is all well and good when you have a decent side (i.e. the last 18 games) but it's worth mentioning that this model isn't for everybody. Firstly, it takes a lot of time to come to fruition, and requires real patience which most fans (myself included) don't have. Secondly, it's very circular - good young players come and go. We don't always have a very good side (our recent fall from the Championship proves that) and at those times it becomes more difficult to justify the expense of the Academy. I admit myself that I have been known to say things like 'scrap the Academy and sign some old pro in midfield' when times were bad.

So whilst it's all well and good to look on with some jealousy today, the 'Crewe system' really doesn't suit many situations. Besides you need someone like Dario who is prepared to sacrifice his career to build such a system. Yes, it paid dividends this week (with a surprisingly local team; most of the players weren't just north-west lads, but lads from Crewe) but if we don't go up, are forced to sell 3 players and sit in mid-table mediocrity next season then you won't be jealous any more!

This gives an interesting overview, with some quotes from Dario.
http://www.crewealex.net/page/AcademyDetail/0,,10414~65768,00.html

Thanks for that .........I was kind of hoping that a Crewe supporter may still be lurking around our site but feared that they may have found other things to think about. :winking: I assumed that it wasn't going to be that simple or that cheap, otherwise everyone else would be following your example. How do you manage to hold onto your brightest talent and avoid them being lured away by the larger clubs around you, as has happened with a couple of our youths recently. EastStandBlue paints a pretty depressing picture below for clubs like us, with the re-organisation that is going to take place from next season, with regard to youth development. From the information he provides I presume that you would fall into category three. What difference do you reckon that is going to make for you?

 

[Supa Shrimpa]

Good topic. I'm all for selling our youths for a handsome profit, however could we at least have the benefit of a couple of them in our first team for a couple of seasons to start with. I mean, we're not exactly loaded with money to keep buying these old pros. But then, perhaps that hits the nail on the head. We probably have to cash in now !