The EU Referendum - What are the facts, Where are the facts

[callan]

And to me it's a fact, that so far, not a single FOOTSIE top 100 company has signed up to the leave campaign.:smile:

Absolutely Barna, A fact indeed....Wasn't it also a fact that over a hundred Business leaders signed a letter in the run up to the election saying that Labour would be bad for the economy?

Isn't it also a Fact that your 'Great Leader' Corbyn has issued a warning to big business over low pay?, a move heavily criticised by the CBI?

Isn't it a fact that TTIP is crafted for Big business and has been admitted by the EU will cost Jobs?

Lastly can I take this opportunity to thank you for pointing out your fact that Big business is the EU's friend....whether they operate in the interest of the Consumer or their workers is another matter....

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Deleted because Jeremy is making me (try to be) a better man.:smiles:

 

[maninasuitcase]

The fact it costs us over £12bn a year, it holds us back from trading with growing economies in the rest of the world, it's ruined our fishing industry, it's played a part in the demise of the steel industry, the strain on public services and suppression of wages caused by mass migration, I could go on... And that's just the UK. Look at the damage the EU has caused in Greece, Portugal etc. For me the costs far outweigh the benefits.

£12bn, where did you get that figure? What is that as a percentage of GDP, maybe less than 0.5%

The EU doesn't stop us trading with anyone. Trade barriers tend to be set by individual countries. The EU has removed trade barriers within the EU and levelled the playing field. For example, air fairs are now consistent across the EU. It has also 'opened up' air space to allow low cost airlines to such Ryanair to operate therefore creating jobs.

From what I have heard over the last few months regarding the steel industry, its demise has been put down to China dumping cheap steel on the market and excessive fuel costs in the UK. Of course our own government could choose to do something about that, but they have decided not to. I do not think us being out of the EU will suddenly mean we can save the steel industry. Indeed China is one of those markets we would want to trade with.

I do not know enough about the Fishing Industry to make a comment, and all the 'EU ruined the fishing industry' articles I could find were from the right-wing press. But if you can find some independent articles to post I will read them.

According to UCL, immigrants from the 10 countries that joined the EU in 2004 contributed more to the UK than they took out in benefits. They added £4.96bn more in taxes in the years to 2011 than they took out in public services. For balance, these figures are disputed by Migration Watch. However, if migration does bring extra money into the country and the government of the day chooses not to spend that income wisely, then that is not the fault of the EU.

Are wages really suppressed by migrants? This article suggests the impact is either small or very small and is worth a read: http://www.niesr.ac.uk/blog/how-small-small-impact-immigration-uk-wages#.Vs4qIjYrHIU

 

[Pubey]

I think the 12bn is about right (from memory), but we also receive a lot of that back. I think the gap between what we contribute and what we get back is about 4bn, and our exports to the EU alone total 12bn. So I don't buy into the argument that automatically because we 'pay' 12bn that we're being ripped off. As with most things, it's a bit more complicated.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

A quick google will tell you that the Kinnocks raped us all for around £10m in their 15 years on the EU gravy train.<br>
<br>
His wages £1.8m<br>
Her wages £ 750.000<br>
Office expenses £ 2.9M<br>
Travel (first class) £1m<br>
Leaving his job £355,00<br>
Entertaining £64,000<br>
<br>
And on it goes. They both claimed separate living allowances but of course lived together in Brussels. Guess what they get a pension of £183,000 per year whilst I had part of my Firefighters pension stolen by the Labour party because I'm told the country can't afford it.<br>
<br>
Like I say MEP nice work if you can get it. Next time your on the picket line perhaps you could tell your fellow striking Doctors where they can earn a decent wage. After all.... Were all in this together.

Why single out the Kinnocks? At least Mrs Kinnock was voted in, Mrs Farage was given her EU salary because she was the only person Me Farage allowed to interview for the job. UKIP's policy of taking as much financially from the EU despite the fact they disagree with its existence is ok?
This concept of political families covers the Bushes, the Kennedys, the Johnsons, the Clintons.
Singling them out is spurious and rape is not a financial action. Can't see anyone of merit agreeing with this post.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Goood old socialism !

Apart from shouting and screaming what did pillock oh I mean Kinnock actually do?

Oh, my mistake, there is always one that will back up vitriolic spoutings.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

My apologies Roots Hall Bloke but I couldn't let that go.

 

[callan]

£12bn, where did you get that figure? What is that as a percentage of GDP, maybe less than 0.5%

The EU doesn't stop us trading with anyone. Trade barriers tend to be set by individual countries. The EU has removed trade barriers within the EU and levelled the playing field. For example, air fairs are now consistent across the EU. It has also 'opened up' air space to allow low cost airlines to such Ryanair to operate therefore creating jobs.

From what I have heard over the last few months regarding the steel industry, its demise has been put down to China dumping cheap steel on the market and excessive fuel costs in the UK. Of course our own government could choose to do something about that, but they have decided not to. I do not think us being out of the EU will suddenly mean we can save the steel industry. Indeed China is one of those markets we would want to trade with.

I do not know enough about the Fishing Industry to make a comment, and all the 'EU ruined the fishing industry' articles I could find were from the right-wing press. But if you can find some independent articles to post I will read them.

According to UCL, immigrants from the 10 countries that joined the EU in 2004 contributed more to the UK than they took out in benefits. They added £4.96bn more in taxes in the years to 2011 than they took out in public services. For balance, these figures are disputed by Migration Watch. However, if migration does bring extra money into the country and the government of the day chooses not to spend that income wisely, then that is not the fault of the EU.

Are wages really suppressed by migrants? This article suggests the impact is either small or very small and is worth a read: http://www.niesr.ac.uk/blog/how-small-small-impact-immigration-uk-wages#.Vs4qIjYrHIU

Interesting stuff.

I saw the figure of 12 billion and thought it was way too low...I believe it to be based on the figure of what we pay in, less what we get back with net contributions standing at around 33 million per day.

To me this is a very crude calculation and should be much higher.

As a net figure your 1/2 a per cent of GDP would I think be generous, have you worked out as a gross though?
Also the EU memberships cost only ever go up....and the UK pay in the second highest amount.

As far as your comments on trade deals are concerned, the EU negotiates on our behalf (outside of the single market)....and then businesses go in and do the rest.

So in effect the benefit of leaving the EU (as far as trade is concerned) is we would no longer be one of 28 members and would not be burdened by their regulation and could seek trade as and when we, as Nation see fit.

If we turn your argument on it's head we gave up our Commonwealth market to a large extent when we entered the EEC, in effect what many are saying can't be done already has been....

The Steel industry is an interesting one as the EU are now actually threatening action against China, and investigating what actually happened across the continent, they are also introducing provisional tariffs to try and protect that industry.
This of course is academic now as 1000's of jobs are already lost, and that may not be the end of it.

There is only so far a government can go in protecting certain industries due to EU regulations, however it was an EU decision not to raise tariffs and protect steel jobs.

The decline of our fishing Industry is directly attributable to EU policy where uk fishing rights shrank overnight from 200 (nautical) miles to 12, then add to that EU policies that have been counter productive.

If it's unbiased information on the EU and their fisheries policy you want, I would suggest that you look at why Greenland left (and to a lesser extent why Norway doesn't join).
If you're still not convinced look into why Iceland chooses not to join.

In terms of migration that is good for the economy why on earth would you want the EU's model?

Surely you want the best people to come to the UK, why have a system that discriminates?

Did the UCL study you mentioned include the costs of schooling? healthcare?, social care? impact on housing costs? or was it just taxes raised minus welfare benefits paid?

I'm not sure what you do for a living, but is it ok for you to earn less because of migration, regardless of the amount?

 

[mrsblue]

Why single out the Kinnocks? At least Mrs Kinnock was voted in, Mrs Farage was given her EU salary because she was the only person Me Farage allowed to interview for the job. UKIP's policy of taking as much financially from the EU despite the fact they disagree with its existence is ok?
This concept of political families covers the Bushes, the Kennedys, the Johnsons, the Clintons.
Singling them out is spurious and rape is not a financial action. Can't see anyone of merit agreeing with this post.

It has become clear you have no intention of seeing anything bad/wrong with anything which doesn't suit your agenda.

The EU was nicknamed the gravy train for a reason you know.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

It has become clear you have no intention of seeing anything bad/wrong with anything which doesn't suit your agenda.

The EU was nicknamed the gravy train for a reason you know.

That comment has nothing to do with my post.


If details of MEP's payments was put up on the fact thread that is useful information. I was complaining of one couple being singled out and of them being accused of 'raping' us (a post you wholeheartedly approved of).


I haven't defended the EU to any great extent, my main point is that those in power would not manage an exit properly (and mostly don't want to). If anyone with proven capability wanted to leave I would be interested in hearing why - unfortunately that is not the situation.


You are getting me mixed up with another poster or just typing random thoughts into your keyboard.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Interesting stuff.

I saw the figure of 12 billion and thought it was way too low...I believe it to be based on the figure of what we pay in, less what we get back with net contributions standing at around 33 million per day.

To me this is a very crude calculation and should be much higher.

As a net figure your 1/2 a per cent of GDP would I think be generous, have you worked out as a gross though?
Also the EU memberships cost only ever go up....and the UK pay in the second highest amount.

As far as your comments on trade deals are concerned, the EU negotiates on our behalf (outside of the single market)....and then businesses go in and do the rest.

So in effect the benefit of leaving the EU (as far as trade is concerned) is we would no longer be one of 28 members and would not be burdened by their regulation and could seek trade as and when we, as Nation see fit.

If we turn your argument on it's head we gave up our Commonwealth market to a large extent when we entered the EEC, in effect what many are saying can't be done already has been....

The Steel industry is an interesting one as the EU are now actually threatening action against China, and investigating what actually happened across the continent, they are also introducing provisional tariffs to try and protect that industry.
This of course is academic now as 1000's of jobs are already lost, and that may not be the end of it.

There is only so far a government can go in protecting certain industries due to EU regulations, however it was an EU decision not to raise tariffs and protect steel jobs.

The decline of our fishing Industry is directly attributable to EU policy where uk fishing rights shrank overnight from 200 (nautical) miles to 12, then add to that EU policies that have been counter productive.

If it's unbiased information on the EU and their fisheries policy you want, I would suggest that you look at why Greenland left (and to a lesser extent why Norway doesn't join).
If you're still not convinced look into why Iceland chooses not to join.

In terms of migration that is good for the economy why on earth would you want the EU's model?

Surely you want the best people to come the UK, why have a system that discriminates?

Did the UCL study you mentioned include the costs of schooling? healthcare?, social care? impact on housing costs? or was it just taxes raised minus welfare benefits paid?

I'm not sure what you do for a living, but is it ok for you to earn less because of migration, regardless of the amount?

Thorough post.


Just picking out two things here -


the steel industry: if we had a PM who had made alliances within the EU rather than enemies then he would have been able to go to the EU and request protection against cheap Chinese imports and seemingly they have that power. If we have a pro-EU government then we may get a lot more out of them. The current situation is that the PM criticises the EU as he feels that is what the public wants to hear, then gets crap deals from those he openly criticises. Not a big surprise.


The fishing comparison may not be the best - fishing is a much bigger deal for Iceland and Norway and their policies on whaling may be a factor. I know that the fishing rights has various complications and may not have been well managed but surely every nation in the EU had a reduction in their fishing rights? This was due to overfishing and depleted stocks so is very necessary. I'm not saying the outcome is ideal but the EU is probably the best place to have that discussion and create alliances to facilitate a better outcome.

 

[GrumpyBlue]

Deleted because Jeremy is making me (try to be) a better man.:smiles:

Impossible :smile::smile::smile::smile:

 

[Gt Yarmouth Shrimper]

Fact. Sticking Fact in a sentence doesn't make it a Fact. Particularly when it comes from you. Fact

He should have also said END OF. then it would have been a fact. :dim:

 

[rigsby]

Why single out the Kinnocks? At least Mrs Kinnock was voted in, Mrs Farage was given her EU salary because she was the only person Me Farage allowed to interview for the job. UKIP's policy of taking as much financially from the EU despite the fact they disagree with its existence is ok?
This concept of political families covers the Bushes, the Kennedys, the Johnsons, the Clintons.
Singling them out is spurious and rape is not a financial action. Can't see anyone of merit agreeing with this post.

Of course your a much better person than anyone who agrees with me, because your left wing and very PC. Just the sort of attitude that lost Labour the election and has already lost them the next one.

The reason Cameron wants us to stay in Europe is because every time Labour speak about the EU, you loose voters. From immigration to your love of red tape. You believe we are incapable of surviving with out a glorified committee in Brussels making all the decisions.

There is an old saying.... A camel is a racehorse designed by a committee. The MEP's don't make laws the just rubber stamp endless rules made up by bureaucrats.

If we left the EU Labour might actually stark talking and making policies for British workers instead of telling them their racist for wanting to protect their jobs and the NHS or buy a house. Whilst we are in Europe the Conservatives will have easy wins in each GE.

The reason I highlighted the Kinnocks was because Pubey wrongly claimed that MEP's don't earn much. As the figures show it costs us mugs a lot more than just their basic salary. Sadly in your world you believe that anything Tory is evil and everyone Labour is a saint. They all take the p*** including every one of the hundreds of MEP's from all over Europe. Which is why millions of people want out.

We back our country and we back ourselves the rest of you bed wetter's are frightened we might pull you off the tit of Europe.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Of course your a much better person than anyone who agrees with me, because your left wing and very PC. Just the sort of attitude that lost Labour the election and has already lost them the next one.

The reason Cameron wants us to stay in Europe is because every time Labour speak about the EU, you loose voters. From immigration to your love of red tape. You believe we are incapable of surviving with out a glorified committee in Brussels making all the decisions.

There is an old saying.... A camel is a racehorse designed by a committee. The MEP's don't make laws the just rubber stamp endless rules made up by bureaucrats.

If we left the EU Labour might actually stark talking and making policies for British workers instead of telling them their racist for wanting to protect their jobs and the NHS or buy a house. Whilst we are in Europe the Conservatives will have easy wins in each GE.

The reason I highlighted the Kinnocks was because Pubey wrongly claimed that MEP's don't earn much. As the figures show it costs us mugs a lot more than just their basic salary. Sadly in your world you believe that anything Tory is evil and everyone Labour is a saint. They all take the p*** including every one of the hundreds of MEP's from all over Europe. Which is why millions of people want out.

We back our country and we back ourselves the rest of you bed wetter's are frightened we might pull you off the tit of Europe.

Cameron wants us to stay in Europe because of Labour......odd start point.

I objected to you singling out 2 MEP's and your use of the word rape. So all of this is unnecessary in that context.

 

[Sandbach Shrimper]

This is Full Fact's take on our membership 'fee', make of it what you will: https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

 

[callan]

Thorough post.


Just picking out two things here -


the steel industry: if we had a PM who had made alliances within the EU rather than enemies then he would have been able to go to the EU and request protection against cheap Chinese imports and seemingly they have that power. If we have a pro-EU government then we may get a lot more out of them. The current situation is that the PM criticises the EU as he feels that is what the public wants to hear, then gets crap deals from those he openly criticises. Not a big surprise.


The fishing comparison may not be the best - fishing is a much bigger deal for Iceland and Norway and their policies on whaling may be a factor. I know that the fishing rights has various complications and may not have been well managed but surely every nation in the EU had a reduction in their fishing rights? This was due to overfishing and depleted stocks so is very necessary. I'm not saying the outcome is ideal but the EU is probably the best place to have that discussion and create alliances to facilitate a better outcome.

On your first point our PM is answerable to the UK electorate, not the EU so I think it perfectly understandable that he should want to put our interests first (or at least attempt to do so).

I am not suggesting that UK politicians should make enemies or that the UK should not enjoy good relations with the EU, however I would rather have a PM that can stand up for the UK, particularly in instances where the UK and EU's interests diverge.

Are you saying that our relationship with the EU is so poor that they won't listen to our concerns or protests, and in fairness if you, are I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you.

As this is the evidence and fact thread perhaps this is the reason why during our time as members we have been over ruled 55 times after lodging a protest.

The short answer to did every Nation have a reduction to their fishing rights is no, but I suspect you are confusing the reduction in miles as being equitable across the board and over looking that far from being reduced, fishing rights were extended to every EU nation to fish the same water.

Coastlines vary in size as do fishing fleets, fish stock & grounds...so in summary a free for all ensued (in what were previously British waters) jobs were lost and fish stocks put in danger as you have already pointed out.

It is a contradiction on your part to say this is what needed to happen, as the last thing you would do if you wanted to protect fish or indeed a fishing industry is to allow everyone to go fishing.

As you say the outcome was far from ideal, and has not been well managed by the EU and still isn't to this day.

 

[mrsblue]

Of course your a much better person than anyone who agrees with me, because your left wing and very PC. Just the sort of attitude that lost Labour the election and has already lost them the next one.

The reason Cameron wants us to stay in Europe is because every time Labour speak about the EU, you loose voters. From immigration to your love of red tape. You believe we are incapable of surviving with out a glorified committee in Brussels making all the decisions.

There is an old saying.... A camel is a racehorse designed by a committee. The MEP's don't make laws the just rubber stamp endless rules made up by bureaucrats.

If we left the EU Labour might actually stark talking and making policies for British workers instead of telling them their racist for wanting to protect their jobs and the NHS or buy a house. Whilst we are in Europe the Conservatives will have easy wins in each GE.

The reason I highlighted the Kinnocks was because Pubey wrongly claimed that MEP's don't earn much. As the figures show it costs us mugs a lot more than just their basic salary. Sadly in your world you believe that anything Tory is evil and everyone Labour is a saint. They all take the p*** including every one of the hundreds of MEP's from all over Europe. Which is why millions of people want out.

We back our country and we back ourselves the rest of you bed wetter's are frightened we might pull you off the tit of Europe.

I refer you to post 13 on the Germany thread,sums it up nicely.

 

[londonblue]

On your first point our PM is answerable to the UK electorate, not the EU so I think it perfectly understandable that he should want to put our interests first (or at least attempt to do so).

I am not suggesting that UK politicians should make enemies or that the UK should not enjoy good relations with the EU, however I would rather have a PM that can stand up for the UK, particularly in instances where the UK and EU's interests diverge.

Are you saying that our relationship with the EU is so poor that they won't listen to our concerns or protests, and in fairness if you, are I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you.

As this is the evidence and fact thread perhaps this is the reason why during our time as members we have been over ruled 55 times after lodging a protest.

The short answer to did every Nation have a reduction to their fishing rights is no, but I suspect you are confusing the reduction in miles as being equitable across the board and over looking that far from being reduced, fishing rights were extended to every EU nation to fish the same water.

Coastlines vary in size as do fishing fleets, fish stock & grounds...so in summary a free for all ensued (in what were previously British waters) jobs were lost and fish stocks put in danger as you have already pointed out.

It is a contradiction on your part to say this is what needed to happen, as the last thing you would do if you wanted to protect fish or indeed a fishing industry is to allow everyone to go fishing.

As you say the outcome was far from ideal, and has not been well managed by the EU and still isn't to this day.

On the subject of fishing, this makes interesting reading.

Open Democracy

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Of course your a much better person than anyone who agrees with me, because your left wing and very PC. Just the sort of attitude that lost Labour the election and has already lost them the next one.

The reason Cameron wants us to stay in Europe is because every time Labour speak about the EU, you loose voters. From immigration to your love of red tape. You believe we are incapable of surviving with out a glorified committee in Brussels making all the decisions.

There is an old saying.... A camel is a racehorse designed by a committee. The MEP's don't make laws the just rubber stamp endless rules made up by bureaucrats.

If we left the EU Labour might actually stark talking and making policies for British workers instead of telling them their racist for wanting to protect their jobs and the NHS or buy a house. Whilst we are in Europe the Conservatives will have easy wins in each GE.

The reason I highlighted the Kinnocks was because Pubey wrongly claimed that MEP's don't earn much. As the figures show it costs us mugs a lot more than just their basic salary. Sadly in your world you believe that anything Tory is evil and everyone Labour is a saint. They all take the p*** including every one of the hundreds of MEP's from all over Europe. Which is why millions of people want out.

We back our country and we back ourselves the rest of you bed wetter's are frightened we might pull you off the tit of Europe.

The only reason Cameron wants to stay in Europe is to unite the Tories under his leadership.That is the sole reason why the UK will be having a referendum on the EU in June.