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Seriously? Labour inherited a well run and healthy economy, what did they do with it to leave the country effectively broke? Brown can't have been that good a chancellor as that was the duration of his tenure before taking over as PM.

You'll no doubt remember that there was a world wide economic crash which started in 2007/8 that we're still suffering from.
 
You'll no doubt remember that there was a world wide economic crash which started in 2007/8 that we're still suffering from.

Yep, there was, but instead of holding on to what reserves we had, Brown went and sold them off. Labour then started throwing ridiculous amounts of money at immigrants while British people, born and bred (of many historical creeds) have seen the pound in their pocket worth less and less. Labour cocked up big time on their immigration policy, I think that's one of the biggest reasons why the country is still suffering.
 
Answer me a question. Do you think that turning the economy around in 3 years was achievable? And if so, under what strategy?

The Conservative led coalition have effectively adopted Darling's pre-election plans during this Parliament,in answer to your second question.
In answer to your first question, Darling's original economic plan outlined a 5/6 year plan to cut the deficit.
 
Yep, there was, but instead of holding on to what reserves we had, Brown went and sold them off. Labour then started throwing ridiculous amounts of money at immigrants while British people, born and bred (of many historical creeds) have seen the pound in their pocket worth less and less. Labour cocked up big time on their immigration policy, I think that's one of the biggest reasons why the country is still suffering.

I'm quite happy to admit (with the benefit of hindsight)that Labour's decsion not to impose strict accesion controls(along with only Ireland and Denmark in the EU) on Polish immigrants was a mistake.
However, the decision was made at a time of economic growth ( well before the crisis hit), when their was also a shortage of labour.
To suggest that this subsequent immigration was in any way linked with the difficulties the UK has had in recovering from the 2008 crisis is preposterous,IMO at least.
 
I'm quite happy to admit (with the benefit of hindsight)that Labour's decsion not to impose strict accesion controls(along with only Ireland and Denmark in the EU) on Polish immigrants was a mistake.
However, the decision was made at a time of economic growth ( well before the crisis hit), when their was also a shortage of labour.
To suggest that this subsequent immigration was in any way linked with the difficulties the UK has had in recovering from the 2008 crisis is preposterous,IMO at least.
There never really WAS a shortage of labour, it's just that people thought a lot of jobs too menial for them.
 
If this thread is about views on Cameron then my "vote" is that him and his cronies are self seeking egotists with the number 1,2 & 3 priority of improving their own bank balances; the rest of us they have little respect for or value.
The sad thing is that the last (and current) Labour lot are the same & the legacy of Blair is that politics is a good way to make a fortune while doing a poor job.
Few politicians care anything about their constituents.
Anyone hear anything from the Southend MPs about the loss of VAT jobs in Vic Ave, M o D at Shoebury or next HMP Bullwood Hall closing?
 
You'll no doubt remember that there was a world wide economic crash which started in 2007/8 that we're still suffering from.

The level of delusion is staggering.

You have confused the catalyst with the cause. There are two economic problems in Britain: the fiscal (deficit and debt) problem and the banking crisis.

The cause of the fiscal problem was the massive increase in public spending and borrowing from 2001 to 2008. It was done on the basis that the credit fuelled consumption binge and financial services engineering was real GDP growth. When the banking crisis hit the illusion was shattered. To be clear, the banking crisis was the catalyst and the Labour government fiscal policy the cause. Your assertion is akin to blaming the lamppost after the reckless, drunk driver ploughs in to it.

The banking crisis we also face is as a result of the continuous erosion of competition in the banking sector as a result of political obsession with scale. We now have a slimmed down banking sector that relies on taxpayer backing to survive. It was Gordon Brown's FSA and his personal obsession with supporting Fred Goodwin's expansion of the RBS balance sheet that led us to that position.

The last government caused so much economic mayhem that it will probably take 20 years to recover. That you can claim they were not in any way culpable is insulting and mendacious.
 
The level of delusion is staggering.

You have confused the catalyst with the cause. There are two economic problems in Britain: the fiscal (deficit and debt) problem and the banking crisis.

The cause of the fiscal problem was the massive increase in public spending and borrowing from 2001 to 2008. It was done on the basis that the credit fuelled consumption binge and financial services engineering was real GDP growth. When the banking crisis hit the illusion was shattered. To be clear, the banking crisis was the catalyst and the Labour government fiscal policy the cause. Your assertion is akin to blaming the lamppost after the reckless, drunk driver ploughs in to it.

The banking crisis we also face is as a result of the continuous erosion of competition in the banking sector as a result of political obsession with scale. We now have a slimmed down banking sector that relies on taxpayer backing to survive. It was Gordon Brown's FSA and his personal obsession with supporting Fred Goodwin's expansion of the RBS balance sheet that led us to that position.

The last government caused so much economic mayhem that it will probably take 20 years to recover. That you can claim they were not in any way culpable is insulting and mendacious.

No matter how many times you explain this Neil, it will forever be lost on Barna.

Maybe referring to the episode of the simpsons when Homer spends a years' budget in a month as Sanitation Commissioner of Springfield might be a better way of breaking things down to Barnas level.
 
The last government caused so much economic mayhem that it will probably take 20 years to recover. That you can claim they were not in any way culpable is insulting and mendacious.

I challenge you to find anything I've ever said on here to the effect that the last Labour Government were "not in any way culpable", at least in part, for the economic crisis that the UK (and the rest of Europe not to mention the USA) presently finds itself in.
Indeed, until the new Labour leadership comes to terms with Labour's part in the current crisis (by apologising for their actions in Government), then Miliband (quite rightly) will never completely win over the trust of the British people.


The notion that the present crisis will take 20 years or so to recover from, conveniently absolves the present Tory led coalition from managing to fix the problem in the current five year term ,which they claimed they would be able to do.


No matter how many times you explain this Neil, it will forever be lost on Barna.

Maybe referring to the episode of the simpsons when Homer spends a years' budget in a month as Sanitation Commissioner of Springfield might be a better way of breaking things down to Barnas level.

It's really about time you stopped demeaning the intelligence of other posters who disagree with your political and economic opinions.

FYI,I've never seen an episode of the Simpsons.
 
I challenge you to find anything I've ever said on here to the effect that the last Labour Government were "not in any way culpable"

On the last page you said that Brown was, "perceived to be an excellent Chancellor." Then in response to a challenge on Labour's record you cited the "worldwide crisis" without any attempt to nuance it. I would suggest it was fairly unequivocal.

Indeed, until the new Labour leadership comes to terms with Labour's part in the current crisis (by apologising for their actions in Government), then Miliband (quite rightly) will never completely win over the trust of the British people.

I've never understood this as a concept. Why should they be forgiven if they just apologise, even if they stand on a platform of repeating every mistake?


The notion that the present crisis will take 20 years or so to recover from, conveniently absolves the present Tory led coalition from managing to fix the problem in the current five year term ,which they claimed they would be able to do.

I think they were wrong to say that. There is still a huge deleveraging exercise to go through (paying down debt, mainly household) before consumption can recover and even then it will never reach the level it was in the time of equity release and end of boom and bust.

I've always said that the pace of fiscal consolidation is about right (some 1% of GDP per year) but that I would have targetted cuts differently and I would have frontloaded the cuts rather than the tax rises. That only solves the deficit issue though. The problem of medium term growth and competitiveness is a separate issue driven by the level of total debt, the shot-to-pieces banking sector and the size of the state. No action has been taken on any of those issues and no political party is proposing anything.
 
It's really about time you stopped demeaning the intelligence of other posters who disagree with your political and economic opinions.

If you would actually engage in the debate in hand instead of deflecting valid issues and/or changing the subject, I would be more inclined to address you with less contempt.

But the fact is you come on here **** stirring with Guardian quotes and links basically undermining any (and I do mean ANY) incentive, proposal or decision the Tories have made but with no opinion or substance of your own making. You're a fan of Labour and Ed Milliband, we get it......But as soon as people on here freely state that they DONT WANT Ed Miiliband in power (Tory voter or otherwise), you accuse us of being "TOWIE watching Essex Men" and then completely discard a fair cross section of the public and refer to more Guardian polls. I asked about the sampling for those polls and why I didn't have a chance to vote myself and your response was that I'd "get my chance in 2015" .....

It's pretty obvious to me that the opinion polls are comprised only of unsatisfied members of the public and the same can be said for the local elections. Even your own Guardian ran a poll on Ed Milliband and very few saw him as the next PM, yet your response to that is along the lines of "better get used to him, as he'll be PM Ed in 2015"......Yet no actual substance to your assertions, just a sweeping statement.

I have lost count of the times that Neil_F has given you facts, figures and sensible lucid arguments and you just come back with nonsense, change the subject or act dumb.

And you wonder why you get labelled clueless and deluded.
 
All the tory diehards (superblue and neil F) can do is blame the last government. It's exactly the same line Cameron/Osborne and Blair/Brown used to cover their own inadequacies.

The fact that you can come on here and use this argument to excuse this shambles of a government is laughable. You need to put your dogma aside for one second and just admit that this current government have failed to achieve any of the major targets that they set themselves. Apart from gay marriage, what has Cameron achieved since beingini office?
 
All the tory diehards (superblue and neil F) can do is blame the last government. It's exactly the same line Cameron/Osborne and Blair/Brown used to cover their own inadequacies.

I repeat, I am not a Tory die hard. I have voted for them once!

I blame the last government for creating the economic mess inherited in 2010 because it was their fault. I blame the current government for all manner of things, not least a totally insane tax policy, the wrong emphasis on fiscal consolidation and an over-dependence on monetary expansion. I maintain that the pace of fiscal consolidation is about right but the priorities are wrong.



The fact that you can come on here and use this argument to excuse this shambles of a government is laughable.

What are you talking about? I said the last government were responsible for the fiscal and banking problems in this country. At no point did I "excuse" the current government.

You need to put your dogma aside for one second and just admit that this current government have failed to achieve any of the major targets that they set themselves.

Nice to discover I am dogmatic. Perhaps you would care to explain to me what particular dogma I subscribe to?

Apart from gay marriage, what has Cameron achieved since beingini office?

Gay marriage hasn't passed the Lords yet. The only two things I would say are delivering a credible fiscal plan in the first emergency budget. Whether it worked or not is irrelevant; at the time the bond markets were looking to hammer any government that looked profligate or reckless. The emergency budget assured the market that wouldn't happen. The other is the beginning of the work to introduce more competition to the state education sector.
 
All the tory diehards (superblue and neil F) can do is blame the last government. It's exactly the same line Cameron/Osborne and Blair/Brown used to cover their own inadequacies.

The fact that you can come on here and use this argument to excuse this shambles of a government is laughable. You need to put your dogma aside for one second and just admit that this current government have failed to achieve any of the major targets that they set themselves. Apart from gay marriage, what has Cameron achieved since beingini office?

Just to also clarify my position. I am not a "diehard Tory" as you put it. I too have voted Conservative only once, and that was the last election. I think the most closely aligned party for me, based on policies, is UKIP, but I wouldn't vote a party who stand no chance of coming to power.

I am not saying that the current government are any great shakes. Errors have been made and promises broken. But I think it would be naive of me (and anyone) to take any parliamentary promises with more than a pinch of salt. What I will say is that the current government is better than the alternative, which is a party who don't seem to have any ideas or direction and is led by a wet lettuce. Labour need to seriously think about getting rid of Milliband and shuffling their cabinet to stand any chance of getting back into power.

I also think it a bit guileless of you to consider that any government in power would be able to turn around our fortunes in 3 years. I think we'd be doing well if we see any results inside 5/6 years. I think someone likened it to a 180 degree turn of the Titanic. Very apt.

Labour were negligent in their second term and I am personally insulted at the way they mishandled everything and led us into deep abyss of debt without putting the brakes on! Look at any graph you like. Every single one shows us spiraling into a mess from about 2008 onwards. Yes, that is when the banking structure collapsed, but you have to ask why Labour decided that more public spending was the way forward?
 
Labour were negligent in their second term and I am personally insulted at the way they mishandled everything and led us into deep abyss of debt without putting the brakes on! Look at any graph you like. Every single one shows us spiraling into a mess from about 2008 onwards. Yes, that is when the banking structure collapsed, but you have to ask why Labour decided that more public spending was the way forward?

And there was me thinking that the last Labour Government was elected for three terms of office, starting in 1997 and finishing in 2010.
I think you're describing their third term of office here, actually.
 
And there was me thinking that the last Labour Government was elected for three terms of office, starting in 1997 and finishing in 2010.
I think you're describing their third term of office here, actually.

Yep. Good work on spotting the "deliberate" mistake ;)
 
I think the banks are to blame for a lot of this mess. Even during the last Conservative and Labour leaderships, I can recall forever picking up post with new credit card applications, falling through the door like confetti.

They encouraged debt as much as the man in the street spent it and bank/building society mortgages were very easy to get even for those that didn't stack up.
 
I think the banks are to blame for a lot of this mess. Even during the last Conservative and Labour leaderships, I can recall forever picking up post with new credit card applications, falling through the door like confetti.

They encouraged debt as much as the man in the street spent it and bank/building society mortgages were very easy to get even for those that didn't stack up.

Nothing's changed mate. I did a balance transfer from one card to a Barclaycard for a fairly small sum of money and got a spanky new card with £16,500 worth of credit with the promise that if that wasn't enough, they'd up it!

Fortunately I'm not that stupid.
 
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