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choggy

Coach
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Messages
595
Location
West Midlands
Hi all...these days I usually respond to threads something around 7-pages in which takes about 2 seconds thought and isn't very serious, just the usual tired crap of taking the **** out of RM, (which lets face it isn't hard, I mean every time he opens his mouth to the press it's bloody hilarous in the most insulting way imaginable to us). This is a bit of a rant and probably not the best time to post this given our best win of the season last friday but anyway, I did give this some thought and I would genuinely like to hear people's views on this...

There is insufficient legislation to protect football. It's a unique industry in that unlike other industry sectors the brand loyalty is unflinching, no matter how badly the football club is abused by its owners they know that they will always be guaranteed a revenue stream from the fans though season tickets and match day revenues. There is no other industry I can think of that has that kind of brand loyalty. People say that football is a religion, they're right in so many ways...

Like it or not, brand globalisation means that the richer get richer and the poorer get poorer but unlike any other industry there is this quasi-religious loyalty to the club you support. We may note the loss of a local supermaket when it gets put out of business by the likes of Tesco but we'll quite happily shop at the new Tesco because it's convenient. If SUFC no longer existed I would never support Manchester United et al and nor would most Southend fans I imagine.

Back to the point, half-hearted and ill-conceived government intervention such as HMRC no longer being a preferential creditor has backfired spectacularly. Instead of giving football clubs protection, all it has meant is that club owners can act with impunity with the knowledge that no matter what happens the goodwill (in an accounting sense) of the asset of the football club in terms of the fan's money from turnstiles and season ticket sales is undimished. Simply put, if SUFC got relegated to Sunday league football, instead of the crowd being one man walking his dog it would be thousands. We'd do an Aldershot or a Winbledon AFC (and better, with no disrepect to either of these clubs Southend's fans base is substantial..5000+ attendances in league 2 given what has happened over the last few seasons is testament to that). HMRC may be a dirty name to many Southend fans but in a sense they were the voice of reason. They don't care about football fan loyalty, if a company is insolvent they wind that company up with the result being that the incumbant owner would be removed from said company. Simple as that...except for football clubs where it seems the rules are different. With the threat of HMRC winding a club removed...where's the threat to a football club owner?

This is what I want, as distateful as it may seem to some. Firstly HMRC MUST be given their preferential creditor status back so they have the clout to stop chairmen using football clubs to fund their other businesses without fear of bankrupcy. A club is bigger than it's chairman and will always endure given a big enough fan-base. Secondly, the FA need to grow a pair and force clubs to appoint independant financial auditors to each club from the conference league up rather than allowing clubs to appoint their own auditors. These audits can then be published so that fans know what is really going on and not be fobbed off by incomprehensible accruals or asset movements. And finally the government needs to grow a pair too and pass legislation that football club owners from the conference level upwards must put at least one season's club running costs based on the previous season independently audited accounts into an eschrow account at the start of each season otherwise they cannot compete in that league. Make the 'golden share' or whatever its called actually mean something. It won't hurt the likes of Chelsea and Man City with their billionaire backers but it will mean that football club chairmen are held to account and are forced to run their clubs in a responsible manner within their means.

Make no mistake, football clubs are ripe pickings for businessmen with no interest in football but who are looking for a safety-net for their other business ventures. For the record, I am categorically stating that RM and other football chairman are acting totally within the law, but from what I see as a purely hypothetical viewpoint there is nothing to stop football chairmen from running their other business activities under this 'special' previlege that football has with HMRC with complete impunity. This has to stop.
 
For the record, I am categorically stating that RM and other football chairman are acting totally within the law,

Speculation, at best, rather than a categoric fact.
 
Innocent until proven guilty, and under current law it takes an act of complete stupidity for a football club chairman to be found guilty of breaking any laws.

No it does not,it takes his accountants to create the accounts that blow smoke up people's arse's.
 
Back to the point, half-hearted and ill-conceived government intervention such as HMRC no longer being a preferential creditor has backfired spectacularly. Instead of giving football clubs protection, all it has meant is that club owners can act with impunity with the knowledge that no matter what happens the goodwill (in an accounting sense) of the asset of the football club in terms of the fan's money from turnstiles and season ticket sales is undimished.

I don't actually agree with this. Whilst borrowing from HMRC is usually the reason why football clubs get into this bother, a better way of dealing with this is supporting HMRC's current stance of lodging winding up petitions after the first missed payment. It's a disgrace really that we got away without paying tax for two years and even when they did file a petition it was initially only for a small part of the total debt (until RM ****ed them off so much that they increased the claim to everything we owe).

If something needs to change it should be something in football's laws rather than the laws of the land. Right now a ten point penalty for administration is a joke. Football Clubs who go into admin should be relegated two division automatically. Until such a strong penalty is put in place there's no real reason why Clubs shouldn't spend HMRC's money and really Clubs who keep their house in order are punished.

Besides, I think HMRC's issue in all this was never that they are not a preferred creditor. It is that other football clubs are a preferred creditor and I don't think that should change.
 
I don't actually agree with this. Whilst borrowing from HMRC is usually the reason why football clubs get into this bother, a better way of dealing with this is supporting HMRC's current stance of lodging winding up petitions after the first missed payment. It's a disgrace really that we got away without paying tax for two years and even when they did file a petition it was initially only for a small part of the total debt (until RM ****ed them off so much that they increased the claim to everything we owe).

If something needs to change it should be something in football's laws rather than the laws of the land. Right now a ten point penalty for administration is a joke. Football Clubs who go into admin should be relegated two division automatically. Until such a strong penalty is put in place there's no real reason why Clubs shouldn't spend HMRC's money and really Clubs who keep their house in order are punished.

Besides, I think HMRC's issue in all this was never that they are not a preferred creditor. It is that other football clubs are a preferred creditor and I don't think that should change.

HMRC's current stance of lodging winding up petitions after the first missed payment is because they are no longer a preferential creditor. What used to happen was that HMRC would be quite happy for clubs to rack up huge debts to them (so long as the club's assets were greater than the debt itself) because HMRC know that in the event the club was declared bankrupt they were guaranteed the monies owed to them from the sale of the club's assets as a preferential creditor. The moment this guarantee was taken away from them it left HMRC with no guarantees that they would receive their money in the event of the club being liquidated, which is why HMRC are filing so many insolvency court claims against football clubs when they miss paying them...it's the only avenue open to them which protects their interests.

This is exactly what caught us out a few seasons ago and the reason why we didn't pay them for two years - RM even admitted that he used HMRC as a 'bank', and this was the reason why, the clubs primary asset (Roots Hall) meant that HMRC knew they would always get their money back at some point or other and all RM kept having to do was pay the late payment fines and just enough money to keep them happy, and, well, that was that. I suspect one of the reaons HMRC lost their rag a bit with RM was because he had recently got planning permission for a new stadium with the proceeds from the sale of Roots Hall, an asset which was underwriting the HMRC debt. And, as you said, because he kept shouting his mouth off about them. Nobody likes a smart-arse.

I completely agree with your point about the ten-point deduction. It is ridiculous. A two-division automatic relegation should be a minimum. Look at Leeds...Ken Bates put them into adminstration when they know that barring a miracle relegation from the Championship was guaranteed, so they went down to league 1 for a few seasons, cleared their debts and now they are riding high in the Championship again. And who is their chairman...Ken Bates still. And as for Peter Ridsdale, the guy who originally got Leeds into this mess in the first place, he prompty joined Cardiff on their executive board.

Going back to your last point, the only reason why this happens is because clubs aren't required to pay for new signings up front in full. Why is this? Clubs getting into debt with other clubs over stepped transfer payments cannot be healthy for the game.
 
This is exactly what caught us out a few seasons ago and the reason why we didn't pay them for two years - RM even admitted that he used HMRC as a 'bank', and this was the reason why, the clubs primary asset (Roots Hall) meant that HMRC knew they would always get their money back at some point

Roots Hall has not been an asset, primary or otherwise, of the football club for a long while.
 
HMRC's current stance of lodging winding up petitions after the first missed payment is because they are no longer a preferential creditor. What used to happen was that HMRC would be quite happy for clubs to rack up huge debts to them (so long as the club's assets were greater than the debt itself) because HMRC know that in the event the club was declared bankrupt they were guaranteed the monies owed to them from the sale of the club's assets as a preferential creditor. The moment this guarantee was taken away from them it left HMRC with no guarantees that they would receive their money in the event of the club being liquidated, which is why HMRC are filing so many insolvency court claims against football clubs when they miss paying them...it's the only avenue open to them which protects their interests.
.

Absolutely. But with that now being the case I don't see why the law should change to make football clubs a special case. HMRC aren't a preferred creditor in any liquidation, football should be no different to anything else.
 
Roots Hall has not been an asset, primary or otherwise, of the football club for a long while.

I believe it was transferred to SEL some years ago, a company owned by Ron Martin as far as I can tell.

...the FA need to grow a pair and force clubs to appoint independant financial auditors to each club from the conference league up rather than allowing clubs to appoint their own auditors. These audits can then be published so that fans know what is really going on and not be fobbed off by incomprehensible accruals or asset movements.
 
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