The secret of Germany's success

[Tangled up in Blue]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2013/may/23/germany-bust-boom-talent

Personally, I'm inclined to believe that it can be mostly attributed to the "50% plus one" rule.

 

[buffalowolf]

What do you think!

I read the article posted by Barna Blue about the secret of Germanys success , what a great read it is. I wonder what everyone thinks , do you think to many foriegners play in the english leagues, i for one do and believe every club should be restricted to just five foriegners.It would give the local talent more chance to blossom also the clubs would then have to really put some money and time into developing local talent.What do you people who live in England believe the English F.A should be doing.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Why start a separate thread to discuss the article? :unsure:

 

[Jam_Man]

Indeed, no point for a new thread (and if you do start a new thread please try to choose a relevant title to the subject).

As for the subject there is too much knee jerk judgements in football. 2 German teams do well in the champions league and suddenly they are the ones to copy. What happened to emulating Spain and Barcelona?

If German teams go on to dominate Europe and win the World Cup then maybe they have a point.

As for foreign players Ive said for years that it does our national team no good at all having so few English players in the top tier. This doesnt really apply to the Champions League though where English clubs are very much able to compete on a financial level with the biggest in Europe. It doesnt matter in that competition whether you have domestic or foreign players.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Indeed, no point for a new thread (and if you do start a new thread please try to choose a relevant title to the subject).

As for the subject there is too much knee jerk judgements in football. 2 German teams do well in the champions league and suddenly they are the ones to copy. What happened to emulating Spain and Barcelona?

If German teams go on to dominate Europe and win the World Cup then maybe they have a point.

As for foreign players Ive said for years that it does our national team no good at all having so few English players in the top tier. This doesnt really apply to the Champions League though where English clubs are very much able to compete on a financial level with the biggest in Europe. It doesnt matter in that competition whether you have domestic or foreign players.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but haven't Bayern reached the SF stage (at least) of the Champions League in the last four seasons now?

 

[Jam_Man]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but haven't Bayern reached the SF stage (at least) of the Champions League in the last four seasons now?

They have, and lost to a pretty average Chelsea side who finished 5th last year. They are also one of the biggest clubs in Europe with one of the biggest wage bills, plus they are just one club. I dont see that as an indication that German football is any better than Spanish or English.

Chelsea actually won it and they were far from being a good side and I wouldnt say last year English football was any better than Spanish just because they did.

EDIT: Actually not quite,
2013 Final
2012 Final
2011 2nd Round
2010 Final
2009 Qtr Final
2008 Didnt qualify
2007 Qtr Final

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

They have, and lost to a pretty average Chelsea side who finished 5th last year. They are also one of the biggest clubs in Europe with one of the biggest wage bills, plus they are just one club. I dont see that as an indication that German football is any better than Spanish or English.

Chelsea actually won it and they were far from being a good side and I wouldnt say last year English football was any better than Spanish just because they did.

EDIT: Actually not quite,
2013 Final
2012 Final
2011 2nd Round
2010 Final
2009 Qtr Final
2008 Didnt qualify
2007 Qtr Final

Most neutrals would I think accept that Bayern were the better side against Chelsea.Great teams seem to have a period of 4/5 years at the top in Europe.The last 5 years have pretty much belonged exclusively to Bar$a.It rather looks like their era has ended and it's Bayern's turn now.

 

[Clinton Baptiste]

Wouldnt surprise me next season if its English dominance once again. Dortmund will be weakened without Goetze and maybe the Polish striker (cant spell his name!). Man City should do well under Pellegrini, Chelsea will be strong again possibly with Falcao, Man U are always there or thereabouts and can see Arsenal having a good run with Wenger splashing a bit of cash. Barca look on the wane and Madrid is unsure what manager will be there. Of course, Bayern will be up there.

 

[chapperzUK]

While it is true that Bayern are an outlier in Germany, their wage bill and income is much bigger than the rest of the league, it is key to look at how many of the players in the German national team and those up and coming players mentioned have been produced by Bayern.

Julian Draxler (19) - Schalke
Andre Schürrle (22) - Started at Mainz, now at Leverkusen
Sven Bender (24) - Started at TSV 1860 Munich, now at Dortmund
Thomas Müller (23) - Bayern
Holger Badstuber (24) - Bayern, but was at TSV Rot and Stuttgart youth systems
Mats Hummels (24) - Started at Bayern, and now at Dortmund (only cost 4m euros!)
Mesut Ozil (24) - Schalke, Werder Bremen and now Real Madrid
Ilkay Gundogan (22) - Bochum, Nuremberg and now Dortmund
Mario Götze (20) - Dortmund
Marco Reus (23) - Was at Dortmund youth system, and now back there after joining a couple of other teams.
Toni Kroos (23) - Bayern

So out of the 11 players, you could argue only 4 were produced by Bayern. So from that you can see that the other German teams are also producing their share of talented youngsters.

 

[Jam_Man]

Most neutrals would I think accept that Bayern were the better side against Chelsea.Great teams seem to have a period of 4/5 years at the top in Europe.The last 5 years have pretty much belonged exclusively to Barca.It rather looks like their era has ended and it's Bayern's turn now.

Any change in power will be proven over the next few seasons, not just one tie.

Bayern certainly blew Barcelona away this year and with Guardiola there next year they may well improve. Barcelona are still no mugs though so time will tell.

 

[Sandbach Shrimper]

I'm getting a bit tired of the whole German football love-in. They were debating it on SSN yesterday with a German journalist and the former MD of Liverpool and they made some good points about the good bits and bad bits of English and German football. Financially the Premier League brings in 3/4 times as much as the Bundesliga and is the most watched league in the world. People say the Premier League is predictable but so are all the top leagues - in Spain and Germany it's a battle between two teams, and a big gap below. At least in England we have 3/4 teams who could conceivably win it. I lived in Germany for a year and went to a lot of Bundesliga games and I think the quality in England overall is higher. Chelsea won the CL last year after finishing 5th in the Premier League, and the standard of the German 2nd division isn't even comparable with the Championship. Of course there are some things Germany is doing better. Ticket prices, stadiums, the fan culture etc are better for the fans and the 50+1 rule ensures financial stability and that the fans have a say. As the journalist on SSN said, they do things "organically", which is healthier in the long-term for the clubs and for the national team. An ideal league would have the best of both worlds, but it's difficult. I still believe the Premier League, and English football overall, is the best and most entertaining in the world, but off the pitch there are certainly lessons to be learnt from our German friends.

P.S. If it wasn't for refereeing decisions in the quarter-final, there would've been a Spanish team in the final.

 

[BrettieAngell]

Germany won't dominate Europe like England and Spain have recently, Bayern might though.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Germany won't dominate Europe like England and Spain have recently, Bayern might though.

In what sense have Spain dominated Europe recently, if you exclude Barca from the equation (and many of their fans would willingly do exactly that)?

See below for Real Madrid's recent Champions Legue history.

2005 - Champions League 2nd Round
2006 - Champions League 2nd Round
2007 - Champions League 2nd Round
2008 - Champions League 2nd Round
2009 - Champions League 2nd Round
2010 - Champions League 2nd Round
2011 - Champions League Semi-Final
2012 - Champions League Semi-Final

 

[BrettieAngell]

In what sense have Spain dominated Europe recently, if you exclude Barca from the equation (and many of their fans would willingly do exactly that)?

See below for Real Madrid's recent Champions Legue history.

2005 - Champions League 2nd Round
2006 - Champions League 2nd Round
2007 - Champions League 2nd Round
2008 - Champions League 2nd Round
2009 - Champions League 2nd Round
2010 - Champions League 2nd Round
2011 - Champions League Semi-Final
2012 - Champions League Semi-Final

Fair point, didn't realise how bad Real's record was (apart from the last couple of years). I guess apart from a few years ago when England had 4 teams winning the CL or getting to finals regularly no other country has come close to that. I certainly can't see German teams coming close to that period.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

Had Mandzukic as first scorer which has paid out 21 quid and Dortmund to win. Just need Dortmund to score again now

 

[buffalowolf]

Didnt think it was as much about dominance as about the calibre of players coming through their youth system, and the money put into the system to teach the youth , and thats not just football but also academically , so the ones that dont make the grade still have a career