The Top 10% - Should They Pay More Tax?

[Yorkshire Blue]

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."
Karl Marx.Critique of the Gotha programme.1875.

And remind us how communism has worked when put into practice in the USSR, China, Cambodia and Cuba?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

And remind us how communism has worked when put into practice in the USSR, China, Cambodia and Cuba?

I refer you to R.C. Tucker's useful distinction (in Philosophy and Myth in Karl Marx) between "Marxian" thought(ie the writings of Marx/Engels)and "Marxist" thought(the ideas of later writers).

 

[Pubey]

Hypothetical question.

If someone was paid some money to do some private consultancy work. Lets say a figure of £1500. If you didn't do a self assessment and declare it, how does HMRC actually know that you've had this income and chase you for it?

Mr Hypothetical may have done some work like that in the past but the client has said they've paid tax at source and Mr Hypothetical has been set up on the system as a 'provider'. Probably legit but no idea what that means. HMRC didn't chase down Mr Hypothetical when the money was paid into his bank.

Mr Hypothetical has the opportunity for more private work on a slightly more regular basis and wants to make sure the process is simple and doesn't want to get any surprises.

 

[steveo]

Hypothetical question.

If someone was paid some money to do some private consultancy work. Lets say a figure of £1500. If you didn't do a self assessment and declare it, how does HMRC actually know that you've had this income and chase you for it?

Mr Hypothetical may have done some work like that in the past but the client has said they've paid tax at source and Mr Hypothetical has been set up on the system as a 'provider'. Probably legit but no idea what that means. HMRC didn't chase down Mr Hypothetical when the money was paid into his bank.

Mr Hypothetical has the opportunity for more private work on a slightly more regular basis and wants to make sure the process is simple and doesn't want to get any surprises.

Mr Hypo is breaking the law by not declaring it then. If people dont declare income the higher tax rate wont matter. And the higher the tx rate, the more people are likely to avoid declaring income.

 

[Swiss Tony]

And remind us how communism has worked when put into practice in the USSR, China, Cambodia and Cuba?

Any man who is not a communist at the age of twenty is a fool,any man who is still a communist at the age of thirty is an even bigger fool.
George Bernard Shaw.

 

[Neil_F]

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."
Karl Marx.Critique of the Gotha programme.1875.

It really is the most evil, pernicious rubbish. Do you honestly believe that, Barna? Have you thought through the logical consequences of it?

 

[Pubey]

Mr Hypo is breaking the law by not declaring it then. If people dont declare income the higher tax rate wont matter. And the higher the tx rate, the more people are likely to avoid declaring income.

Mr Hypo is happy to declare taxes, just wants to know if there is a simple way for the client to pay the tax, or if a self assessment will be required.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Any man who is not a communist at the age of twenty is a fool,any man who is still a communist at the age of thirty is an even bigger fool.
George Bernard Shaw.

Shaw, of course, was never a communist.But he most certainly was a socialist.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

It really is the most evil, pernicious rubbish. Do you honestly believe that, Barna? Have you thought through the logical consequences of it?

Of course.It's perhaps one of the few things that I actually do still believe from that period of my life.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Hypothetical question.

If someone was paid some money to do some private consultancy work. Lets say a figure of £1500. If you didn't do a self assessment and declare it, how does HMRC actually know that you've had this income and chase you for it?

Mr Hypothetical may have done some work like that in the past but the client has said they've paid tax at source and Mr Hypothetical has been set up on the system as a 'provider'. Probably legit but no idea what that means. HMRC didn't chase down Mr Hypothetical when the money was paid into his bank.

Mr Hypothetical has the opportunity for more private work on a slightly more regular basis and wants to make sure the process is simple and doesn't want to get any surprises.

Mr Hypo is breaking the law by not declaring it then. If people dont declare income the higher tax rate wont matter. And the higher the tx rate, the more people are likely to avoid declaring income.

As a freelance, I declare all my company,school etc earnings each quarter.I insist the firms I work with deduct my tax at source,which I always declare.That way, I'm not left with any unpleasant suprises, even if a company I work with hasn't paid their tax bill on time(which happens occasionally).
Stevo's quite right,btw.

 

[Tinks]

This isn't about reducing the effective rate of tax through avoidance. He wants the top 10% to pay more tax than they are currently required to do.

For the record, the top 10% in terms of income starts at £39,600. That is from HMRC's statistics in 09/10, the last available data set. Uplift generously for inflation and you get about £46,000 in today's terms. Nick Clegg wants everyone earnings more than £46k to pay more tax.

How he wants to do that I have no idea (and neither does he). This is the group that start to lose their child benefit at £5k more, it is the graduate a few years into their job who will now have £30k of student debt.

How an earth can £39,600 be high earnings? to me that is average earnings.
High earnings is above the £100,000 mark. it means that people earning around £40,000 per anum pay the same amount as someone earning £120,000 were the "fair" in that system.
I have worked bloody hard all my life to get where I am, so that I can provide for my family and emsure we have a comfortable life, holidays when we want and can do what we want how we want without worry. I have saved for my retirement and have invested for my retirement so that I can continue with my lifestyle.
Mr & Mrs up the road, spend all day at home, make no attempts to find work and expect the state to pay for their new car, house extension and holidays.
I hate politics!

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Mr Hypo is happy to declare taxes, just wants to know if there is a simple way for the client to pay the tax, or if a self assessment will be required.

Not unless you're a registered freelance,I suspect.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Mr & Mrs up the road, spend all day at home, make no attempts to find work and expect the state to pay for their new car, house extension and holidays.
I hate politics!

Sorry but I don't see the connection? :unsure:

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Sorry but I don't see the connection? :unsure:

LOL, you really are a communist!

 

[Pubey]

How an earth can £39,600 be high earnings? to me that is average earnings.
High earnings is above the £100,000 mark. it means that people earning around £40,000 per anum pay the same amount as someone earning £120,000 were the "fair" in that system.
I have worked bloody hard all my life to get where I am, so that I can provide for my family and emsure we have a comfortable life, holidays when we want and can do what we want how we want without worry. I have saved for my retirement and have invested for my retirement so that I can continue with my lifestyle.
Mr & Mrs up the road, spend all day at home, make no attempts to find work and expect the state to pay for their new car, house extension and holidays.
I hate politics!

But what is average in Eastwood/Essex is well above average for the UK. People's perceptions are biased by the areas they live (i.e. houses are expensive in Essex, as is the cost of living in general), however in plenty of places up north a £37k salary would comfortably support a family and living expenses. Professionals and people in jobs requiring a degree are pretty much in the top 25% at the bare minimum.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

LOL, you really are a communist!

Lots of love? :unsure::hilarious:
Ex-communist,please.:smiles:

 

[Neil_F]

Sorry but I don't see the connection? :unsure:

Aren't you always citing inequality as a problem? The modern left philosophy seems to be about relative inequality (relative here often meaning to your peers). Tinks was talking about the issue of working hard whilst neighbours relied on the state yet had a similar standard of living (which is the system of redistribution you advocate). If you are denying that the relative inequality of input is a problem then you cannot argue that the relative inequality of output is a problem.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Aren't you always citing inequality as a problem? The modern left philosophy seems to be about relative inequality (relative here often meaning to your peers). Tinks was talking about the issue of working hard whilst neighbours relied on the state yet had a similar standard of living (which is the system of redistribution you advocate). If you are denying that the relative inequality of input is a problem then you cannot argue that the relative inequality of output is a problem.

The sort of inequality that I'm worried about, is contained in the figures released last week, showing that 25% of those children eligible for free school meals in the UK don't actually claim them(or rather their parents don't).Personally,I don't worry too much about how my neighbours are doing relative to my family.

 

[applelover]

People pay so much tax in this country it's ridiculous. NO NO NO!

The cost of living is the problem in the UK. We need to cap energy prices and rents not increase tax.

 

[Hotman]

I like to think I'm fairly smart, and open, when it comes to these things, but nobody has ever given me an explanation of why higher earners should pay more tax. Lets take this example.

Assume a flat rate of 20%, and tax free amount of £10k, for simplicity (and I haven't got a calculator to hand).

Someone on £10k pays £0

Someone on £20k pays £2k

Someone on £110k pays £20k

Now, it would be safe to assume that consumption of tax-funded services does not increase with earnings I'd say (if anything I'd argue a decrease - rather than go to the library, I just buy books on my Kindle. Rather than queue for an NHS bed, I go Bupa). Why should Mr £110k pay more on the higher slice of his income (lets say an additional 20% on the top £50k to make a higher rate of 40%) - an additional £10k?

Surely the system should be more about finding an appropriate tax-free amount to protect pensioners and those truly unable to work, followed by a fair flat percentage across the board?

And note that 'tax evasion/avoidance' doesn't come into this argument - that's a separate matter, although I acknowledge that the pure economics mean that both service providers and Mr £110k are more likely to be attracted to one another than Mr £20k.