The Truth ( (Hillsborough)

[Tangled up in Blue]

Yeah nobody there was drunk were they!!!!! Get real it's an away day!

The majority of the 96 people who died would have got there early to be at the very front of the Leppings Lane stand.Police tests on all the dead(including young children and teenagers)have proved that very few of them had high levels of alcohol in their blood.

 

[WoodhamShrimper]

Alot of police statements where censered to what the higher tier police wanted to see. these police with the power to censor should be protiscuted for purjury

 

[TrueBlue]

The majority of the 96 people who died would have got there early to be at the very front of the Leppings Lane stand.Police tests on all the dead(including young children and teenagers)have proved that very few of them had high levels of alcohol in their blood.

Yeah but why would it be their fault? the drunk people would have been at the back pushing forward

 

[Richard T]

Yeah but why would it be their fault? the drunk people would have been at the back pushing forward

I will try to make these point’s without being too insulting but believe me that will be difficult bearing in mind your previous post’s.

Why should or would people push each other in the first place?

Have you never been to a game with a big crowd and in certain situations totally impossible not to push as the weight the crowd moves forward.
I have been in numerous crowd’s for some very big games and have been a little bit crushed myself on various occasions but that was just normal at that time.

Why try and gain entry without a ticket?

At some games there are just not enough tickets go around so passionate fans will try to find any way to gain entry.
But this had NO BEARING on the tragedy.

Yeah nobody there was drunk were they!!!!! Get real it's an away day!

Not sure if you are judging other people by your own standards but it was proven that the level of alcohol consume was unremarkable with this type of event and had NO BEARING on this tragedy.

Yeah but why would it be their fault? the drunk people would have been at the back pushing forward ?

I refer you to my previous comments.


May I suggest you do like most genuine football fans are now is make yourself aware of the true facts and hope those responsible face justice as well as be thankful
that it was not your club or even family that suffered because of the mistakes that were made that day and then covered up.

 

[ian_the_girth]

How many fans turned up without tickets?
Lucky nothing similar happened in Istanbul 2005 again where fans turned up without tickets.

 

[Jam_Man]

But did the north bank ever have thousands turn up without tickets??

Yes massive police failings but if just one person less died because a fan who did not have a ticked did not travel then I stand by my comment the is blame on all fronts but mostly with the old bill

No and if they did it would be the police responsibility to manage it.

Those people died because of crowd management. Even if there were a few thousand turn up without tickets that should not result in the crowd being herded into one third of the stand.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Yeah but why would it be their fault? the drunk people would have been at the back pushing forward

You have fallen for the Police cover up.Get real.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/sep/12/hillsborough-truth-about-causes-of-disaster

"The spreading of unsubstantiated allegations to the media

The panel found that the origin of the "serious allegations" of misbehaviour by Liverpool supporters, most infamously carried by the Sun on 19 April 1989, came from Whites Press Agency in Sheffield. The agency was "informed by" several South Yorkshire police officers, a police federation spokesperson and Irvine Patnick, a local Conservative MP.

The panel found "there is no evidence" to support the allegations of drunkenness, ticketlessness and violence by supporters which were spread by the police.

The panel also found that the South Yorkshire police chief constable, Peter Wright, encouraged junior officers to present this case to the media, as "a defence", to present "a rock solid story". The nature of the stories was to falsely blame the supporters for causing the disaster, and ensure the police would be exonerated by Lord Justice Taylor's inquiry."

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Perhaps a good time to read David Peace's 'Red Riding Quartet' or to look again at Channel Four's brilliant 'Red Riding', a film adaptation from the books. Although the 'fictitious' events here take place a good decade before Hillsborough it reveals an atmosphere, within the police force, that makes it easier to understand how such a travesty of justice could occur.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Perhaps a good time to read David Peace's 'Red Riding Quartet' or to look again at Channel Four's brilliant 'Red Riding', a film adaptation from the books. Although the 'fictitious' events here take place a good decade before Hillsborough it reveals an atmosphere, within the police force, that makes it easier to understand how such a travesty of justice could occur.

Jack Straw was unfortunately trying to make party political capital out of the same point earlier this morning.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2012/sep/13/hillsborough-report-reaction-politics-live

"One other reflection I have about this is the state of the police generally in the late 1980s, and the fact that the Thatcher government, because they needed the police to be a partisan force, paticularly for the miners’ strike and other industrial troubles, created a culture of impugnity in the police service and they really were immune from outside influences. And they thought they could rule the roost. And that is what we actually saw in South Yorkshire".

While I agree with you that the SYP seemed to be a law unto itself(and I've read the DP books and seen the RR C4 adaption)this should not be turned into a party political matter.Jack Straw coud have chosen to reopen the inquiry after 1997 and chose not to.

 

[Napster]

According to what I've read/heard since, some 116 out of the 164 Police Officers changed their written evidence.Many of these PO's will have since retired.I would hope that the Attorney General will overturn the Hillsborough Inquest verdict of "accidental deaths" and that criminal prosecutions will result from a new inquest verdict of "unlawful killings" or manslaughter.ACU is of course right that these PO's changed their written testimony on advice from the very top of the South Yorkshire Police Force.
While I have no time for Douglas Hurd(the Conservative Home Secretary at the time)or Thatcher the PM, I think it's a mistake to make any political capital out of this.Jack Straw as Labour Home Secretary(under Blair)had an opportunity to reopen the inquiry and refused to take it.
The important thing for me is that the 96 who died(and their families)have been completely vindicated after 23 years.

Huh.I agree with you.This can't last.

ps alhough Jack Straw's a **** for not doing anything.

 

[steveo]

The gates were opened at the express request of the South Yorkshire Police force.

But if they had not been opened how many fans would have been crushed outside?
Its not as if the bloke by the gates can say "just hang on a minute chaps, Ill shoot down the front and see whats happening"

It was a tragedy and the old bill made mistakes but surely there has to be some blame on fans turning up without tickets, trying to take the place of a "fellow red" who bought one legitimately.

 

[Richard T]

How many fans turned up without tickets?
Lucky nothing similar happened in Istanbul 2005 again where fans turned up without tickets.

I went to Istanbul in 2005 and from what I saw only a few fans turned up at the Stadium without tickets.
Indeed there was a guy with a spare trying to sell it at face value outside the Ataturk and could not for a
long time as most of those few fans that had travelled to Turkey without tickets remained in the city centre as the
ground was a very long way out. In Athens there was a little bit more of a problem regarding fans without tickets.
Whilst there could always be problems with a large crowd not controlled well although again I am not sure this
Was a great choice of Stadium it was far safer than Hillsborough so nothing similar was ever going to happen.

 

[Beefy]

Had Hillsborough not happened something else would have happened somewhere as anyone who went to games in the late 80s and early 90s would surely know.

The accident was down to shocking organisation and a complete mishandling of the disaster as it unfolded. But it couldn't happen today because there's a fundamentally different level of organisation by the footballing authorities & police and because the mindset and behaviour of fans in England is so different than it was 25 years ago.

 

[Richard T]

But if they had not been opened how many fans would have been crushed outside?
Its not as if the bloke by the gates can say "just hang on a minute chaps, Ill shoot down the front and see whats happening"

It was a tragedy and the old bill made mistakes but surely there has to be some blame on fans turning up without tickets, trying to take the place of a "fellow red" who bought one legitimately.

The previous year when the game was controlled by a different Police Officer than David Duckenfield (who was in charge for his first major match) tickets checks were made several hundred yards away from the Stadium .If this had happen again this thread would not exist but more importantly 96 innocent people would have not have died on that day.

Really passionate football fans will always try to get into matches which I would have thought people using this site would understand. It is the authorities including the Polices’ duty of care to make sure that enthusiasm is controlled.

 

[Beefy]

The previous year when the game was controlled by a different Police Officer than David Duckenfield (who was in charge for his first major match) tickets checks were made several hundred yards away from the Stadium .If this had happen again this thread would not exist but more importantly 96 innocent people would have not have died on that day.

Really passionate football fans will always try to get into matches which I would have thought people using this site would understand. It is the authorities including the Polices’ duty of care to make sure that enthusiasm is controlled.

No one died the year before, but from what I gather there was severe crushing and over-crowding and lessons should have been learned by the authorities from that experience. It doesn't appear that they were.

Football fans (and I'm using that term to describe all fans in English football at the time - not just Liverpool and certainly not the ones who died) being "passionate" doesn't obsolve them of any responsibility for their actions though.

 

[Jam_Man]

Had Hillsborough not happened something else would have happened somewhere as anyone who went to games in the late 80s and early 90s would surely know.

The accident was down to shocking organisation and a complete mishandling of the disaster as it unfolded. But it couldn't happen today because there's a fundamentally different level of organisation by the footballing authorities & police and because the mindset and behaviour of fans in England is so different than it was 25 years ago.

Was thinking the same last night driving home listening to Talksport.

I first went to football in 1980 but started going on my own in the late 80's. At a club like Southend it was different as the crowds were smaller, but the general attitude of games was so far apart from what we have now. Even then taking a girl to a game was unusual. Now I take my 5 and 9 year old to the ground happily. Of course the language can still get a bit fruity but its a decent atmosphere.

Football would no doubt have changed over time as society does, but the catalyst of Hillsborough brought us to this point more than anything else.

Football is safer and better for it and at least something good came from such a horrific event.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

But if they had not been opened how many fans would have been crushed outside?
Its not as if the bloke by the gates can say "just hang on a minute chaps, Ill shoot down the front and see whats happening"

It was a tragedy and the old bill made mistakes but surely there has to be some blame on fans turning up without tickets, trying to take the place of a "fellow red" who bought one legitimately.

Where is your evidence for your claim that fans turned up without tickets?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/sep/12/hillsborough-disaster-police-coverup-revealed

"In that landscape of neglect, it was the mismanagement of the crowd by South Yorkshire police, commanded by an inexperienced Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield, which was "the prime cause" of the disaster. The police lost control outside the ground, where 24,000 Liverpool fans had to be funnelled through just 23 turnstiles, so Duckenfield ordered a large exit gate to be opened and a large number of people to be allowed in. His "blunder of the first magnitude", according to Taylor, was the failure to close off the tunnel that led to the already overcrowded central "pens" – a dreadful word for a sports venue – of the Leppings Lane terrace."

 

[Beefy]

Where is your evidence for your claim that fans turned up without tickets?

My understanding is that there were some ticketless fans. In fact Richard T alludes to that when he says:

The previous year when the game was controlled by a different Police Officer than David Duckenfield (who was in charge for his first major match) tickets checks were made several hundred yards away from the Stadium .If this had happen again this thread would not exist but more importantly 96 innocent people would have not have died on that day.

....implying that the year before ticketless fans were weeded out several hundred yards away but that in 1989 the checks were not done until the ground making it next to impossible to stop anyone just walking into the open gates.

 

[Parold]

The 'ticketless fans' thing is part of the cover up. There is no evidence and the story was fabricated by the police to try and blame Liverpool fans.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

The 'ticketless fans' thing is part of the cover up. There is no evidence and the story was fabricated by the police to try and blame Liverpool fans.

You're quite right.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/sep/12/hillsborough-disaster-police-coverup-revealed

"In a concerted campaign begun even as the dead were lying in a temporary mortuary at Hillsborough itself – led, the panel found, by the chief constable, Peter Wright – the South Yorkshire police marshalled their story that drunken supporters or those without tickets had caused the disaster."

"The report, substantially authored by professor Phil Scraton of Queen's University, Belfast, and unanimously agreed by the panel of eight experts, found there was "no evidence … to verify the serious allegations of exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans"