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fbm

Blue tinted optimist⭐
Joined
Oct 28, 2003
Messages
8,818
Location
Cloud cuckoo land
Oh my God - yes it's (yet) another Steve Tilson thread... and I would like to say that in making this I am only too well aware that this is a public forum and everyone is entitled to their opinion.

But Christ there is a lot of tripe spouted on here.

OK, lets start just by recapping on two facts:

1) Steve Tilson and Paul Brush have been the most successful management team in SUFC history and have won more stuff in their short reign than everyone else put together
2) Under their leadership we have achieved our best ever result, won our highest ranking trophy, reached the quarter finals of a major domestic competition for the first time and played at the Milstad 3 times (would have been Wembley if it had been finished).

Now for something that can't be proved as a fact but wouldn't probably get much argument against; Steve Tilson and Paul Brush work much better as a team than they would do individually. That in my opinion is actually quite important.

It's important because if Ron Martin IS thinking of replacing them (which I am sure he isn't) then who to bring in is of paramount importance. Which managers are currently available? Any ex-Prem manager is a non starter so we won't even bother with the likes of Roy Keane. What about Paul Jewell, Aidy Boothroyd, Alan Pardew, Iain Dowie or Billy Davies? Any of those would be decent appointments but we stand as much chance of getting them as signing Steven Gerrard.

Colin Calderwood? Gary McAllister? If they can't do it at Forest and Leeds they aren't going to work at SUFC, are they?

Glen Roeder's time is surely numbered at Norwich but I think we would all shake our heads in horror if he was anywhere near the post.

So it's a lower league manager then. But hang on... who is one of the longest serving managers in leagues one and two, 8th longest serving in all leagues and certainly one of the most respected outside the CCC?

Oh... thats Steve Tilson.

After the 5 years we have had if we got rid of Tilly now we would be the laughing stock of football.

He has had to rebuild the side following last years departures. Our strange transfer system has meant he has had to rely on loans and has also had incredible trouble recruiting players to the club. Plymouth have the same trouble, you know. Their geography doesn't help but they are a much bigger club than we are and are in the CCC which you would think would count for something. But just read recent interviews by their manager Paul Sturrock and it's a familiar tale.

So we have no ideal replacement for the Tilly and Brush partnership. Not a good start, is it?

And what do we honestly think will happen if we do get rid? We'll probably have a honeymoon period of 3 or 4 games and then will find our level again. So do we change the manager again? And then again? Hang on, that's what Man City have done and their fans are crying out for stability. All teams go through good and bad patches and this is just one of the latter. We'll come out of it eventually. And if Tilly thinks he can't take the club any further, he'll be the first to say so. He needs to be given time for his new team to gel. Hopefully Harding, Christophe and Sawyer will become permanent fixtures soon which will help.

So, why was it we wanted shot of him again? Oh yes, because we have a run of a few bad results. That was it.

Trust me... he's going nowhere. Not if Ron's got anything to do with it. It's about time some fans realised what gems that Tilly and Brush are and how lucky we are to have them.

And to anyone who wants rid, I would just ask who they would bring in?
 
Last edited:

Irate Ian

Members
Joined
Dec 1, 2004
Messages
2,070
Hooray happy days are here again.

85% of supporters can't be wrong.

If anything it's the home support that
needs to sharpen up its act and get
behind both team and manager.

That means us !!!!
 
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
261
Location
London
I've remained quiet on this subject so far, and this is partially because I find it difficult to put myself in either the "Tilly in" or "Tilly out" corners. Despite believing that Tilson shouldn't be sacked, I become slightly irritated with the same old arguments being levelled by his ardent supporters: "Well who would you bring in?!". Now this argument would be all well and good, except it's ****. And it's **** for a couple of reasons.

1) It implies that a potentially 'good' manager for Southend United is merely one who has a good past record. Now forgive me for my ignorance, but what exactly was Steve Tilson's record before he took over at Southend? His supporters can't have it both ways: you can't praise him for being our best ever manager, and then say that we should never look to appoint someone who doesn't have a better manager than our current one.

2) It implies that it is a poster's obligation to come up with a replacement manager - people on here should feel entirely justified in posting that they would like Tilson to be sacked, without having to back up their claims of his under-performance with a managerial short-list.

Furthermore, those who cite Tilson's record as a reason for outrage when the question of whether he should stay irritate me a bit. It's all very well saying that he achieved back-to-back promotions, but you all seem to conveniently forget the relegation. Yes, we over-achieved getting to the Championship, but that doesn't mean that we should feel completely happy to see the progress this club has made slowly slip away again. Also, using the one-off match against Man Utd. as a reason to keep Tilson is comcial - there are dreadful managers who have guided their teams to cup upsets in the past, that doesn't mean they were above being sacked.

Talk of 'continuity' being the key also raises a few issues. 1) We have had anything but continuity on the pitch in recent seasons, with Tilson unable to keep a settled side, for one reason or another. The reliance on loan players doesn't send out the message of a club on the way up, rather of one scrapping around to try and stay at their current level. 2) When people say that 'the most successful clubs are ones who have kept their managers' - well no ****ing ****. A successful manager will generally not be sacked, so it is rather that the manager has continued to be successful, than the conintuity itself breeding success.

However, this said, I would stick with Tilson. He has a certain something - it's certainly not eloquence, and from what I've seen, it's not a tactical mastermind, but it IS something. And we should keep on to him, at least until the end of this season, to give him a chance to keep hold of one of his achievements - promotion to League 1. Now this means putting up with some of his incredibly annoying decisions - Barrett back in the side, fantastic - and mind-bendingly stupid post-match interviews. But with the decision to keep Tilson, comes a duty to not do stupid things at matches - like boo his decisions (Walker), or start stupid chants. However, it does not mean that people who raise the issue of him being sacked are laughed at, ignored, or made fun of.

Thankfully, ShrimperZone has been better at that last point than normal over the last couple of days.
 

chapperzUK

Guest
I agree with you there. He is a great manager and because he has lost a few games, some idiots who are impatient and have probably recently become southend united fans think he should go. Let us not join in with the likes of Newcastle or Tottenham who fire managers when they haven't won in 3 games! UTP :support:
 
Joined
Oct 26, 2003
Messages
1,196
Two splendid posts from both fbm and tfm the Shrimperzone at its best, reasoned argument eloquently put. I agree with points from both posts, occasionaly tilly irritates the hell out of me, most recently over the reinstatement of Barret when it must be clear to all and sundry that he is in stinking form,his interviews are an absolute masterclass in stating the bleedin' obvious and the substitions are sometimes bizarre.
But I still believe he is the right man along with Paul Brush, I think he is operating under a very difficult financial situation and he has certainly raised expectations at the club which will always be a stick to beat him with. So in short i'm keeping the faith with Tilly and Brush.
 

Csboy

Manager
Joined
Dec 8, 2003
Messages
1,599
Great post 'fbm'. Totally agree with you. Another point that the 'Tilson out' minority forget is that Tilson and Brush are under contract and would have to be paid a large settlement figure which is money the club doesn't have right now. Also to bring in a new manager he is going to have been paid more than Tilson was(no way is a decent manager going to accept a low wage) and where will that money come from? Thats something I haven't heard the 'tilson out' minority answer yet.
 

Farmer Fossett

Youth Team⭐
Joined
Sep 2, 2007
Messages
450
Excellent post by The Forgotten Man one of the best I have read this year!!

FBM your point has been well put and whilst I agree that Tilson and Brush have been the most successful Management team in SUFC history we have been on a downward spiral since we were promoted to the Championship. On current form we have a real chance of relegation.

I also agree that there is no chance of Tilson being replaced now and probably not until the end of the season. I however believe that if Tilson where to go - Boohroyd, Pardew and possibly Davies would be interested in the position - the longer you are ou of league Management the harder it is to get back. Another excllent appointment would be Ian Holloway.

It is also worth noting that there are numerous Managers that have had poor records when taking over clubs, an example is Phil Brown a Hull. When taking over the position many Hull supporters believed that the board where mad especially as his record at Derby was dire.
 

Richard_Cadette

The Realist
Joined
May 11, 2005
Messages
1,613
Location
Eastwood, Leigh-on-Sea
So, why was it we wanted shot of him again? Oh yes, because we have a run of a few bad results. That was it.

Trust me... he's going nowhere. Not if Ron's got anything to do with it. It's about time some fans realised what gems that Tilly and Brush are and how lucky we are to have them.

And to anyone who wants rid, I would just ask who they would bring in?

I disagree that the recent upsurge in people questioning the merits of Tilly and Brush is because we have had a few bad results - it goes deeper than that.

I would suggest the main reason for people getting all hot under the collar is the current state of the squad we have, and the decisions Tilly has made re getting players in etc.

A few bad results is one thing, a complete inability to remedy a defence which has been malfunctioning for nearly 3 seasons is a whole dfferent ball game. An insistance on bringing in 3 wide players during the loan window when it was patently obvious our biggest flaw was the centre of midfield - and one of those hasn't even featured yet.

The team is a mere shadow of the one which reached the playoffs last season, and even that wasn't good enough to get us promoted, so how anyone can expect su to be anywhere near the top of the table this season is beyond me.

This whole argument about if not Tilly, then who else is equally flawed too - the people who say that are basically saying in their opinion no one else is qualified to manage our club, and do a successful job. We could name a very large number of out of work managers that are all capable of doing a decent job with Southend United - On the flip side, there are also a number who may do a terrible job with Southend United - all of it is a gamble.

If results continue in the same vein that they have been over the last few weeks, that could well lead to us getting embroiled in a relegation scrap - How much would Tilly's previous achievements affect the situation if we were to be relegated? Nobody can detract from what T and B have done with this club (I don't accept that their achivements are greater than what Webby achieved personally, but thats just opinion) and that will be forever in the record books - they should, and will, be given the upmost respect by every single Southend United fan forever more because of it, but that CANNOT be the reason they are immune from criticism or the same pressures that other managers face.

If we're relegated this season, we're back to square one, and it would be churlish to suggest that no other manager in the land could not take us forward from this point onwards.

FWIW, I don't think it is the right decision to remove him, but that is only because I believe he can take us forward - it has NOTHING to do with what he did previously, only what I think he can do in the future, and that can be the only definitive reason he should remain in charge - the future, not the past. The moment it appears that Tilly has lost the ability to move this club onwards and upwards is the moment his employment with us should cease.
 

TBV_Dan

Supporting The Blue Voice
Joined
Jan 18, 2008
Messages
2,214
Location
Southend
Oh my God - yes it's (yet) another Steve Tilson thread... and I would like to say that in making this I am only too well aware that this is a public forum and everyone is entitled to their opinion.

But Christ there is a lot of tripe spouted on here.

OK, lets start just by recapping on two facts:

1) Steve Tilson and Paul Brush have been the most successful management team in SUFC history and have won more stuff in their short reign than everyone else put together
2) Under their leadership we have achieved our best ever result, won our highest ranking trophy, reached the quarter finals of a major domestic competition for the first time and played at the Milstad 3 times (would have been Wembley if it had been finished).

Now for something that can't be proved as a fact but wouldn't probably get much argument against; Steve Tilson and Paul Brush work much better as a team than they would do individually. That in my opinion is actually quite important.

It's important because if Ron Martin IS thinking of replacing them (which I am sure he isn't) then who to bring in is of paramount importance. Which managers are currently available? Any ex-Prem manager is a non starter so we won't even bother with the likes of Roy Keane. What about Paul Jewell, Aidy Boothroyd, Alan Pardew, Iain Dowie or Billy Davies? Any of those would be decent appointments but we stand as much chance of getting them as signing Steven Gerrard.

Colin Calderwood? Gary McAllister? If they can't do it at Forest and Leeds they aren't going to work at SUFC, are they?

Glen Roeder's time is surely numbered at Norwich but I think we would all shake our heads in horror if he was anywhere near the post.

So it's a lower league manager then. But hang on... who is one of the longest serving managers in leagues one and two, 8th longest serving in all leagues and certainly one of the most respected outside the CCC?

Oh... thats Steve Tilson.

After the 5 years we have had if we got rid of Tilly now we would be the laughing stock of football.

He has had to rebuild the side following last years departures. Our strange transfer system has meant he has had to rely on loans and has also had incredible trouble recruiting players to the club. Plymouth have the same trouble, you know. Their geography doesn't help but they are a much bigger club than we are and are in the CCC which you would think would count for something. But just read recent interviews by their manager Paul Sturrock and it's a familiar tale.

So we have no ideal replacement for the Tilly and Brush partnership. Not a good start, is it?

And what do we honestly think will happen if we do get rid? We'll probably have a honeymoon period of 3 or 4 games and then will find our level again. So do we change the manager again? And then again? Hang on, that's what Man City have done and their fans are crying out for stability. All teams go through good and bad patches and this is just one of the latter. We'll come out of it eventually. And if Tilly thinks he can't take the club any further, he'll be the first to say so. He needs to be given time for his new team to gel. Hopefully Harding, Christophe and Sawyer will become permanent fixtures soon which will help.

So, why was it we wanted shot of him again? Oh yes, because we have a run of a few bad results. That was it.

Trust me... he's going nowhere. Not if Ron's got anything to do with it. It's about time some fans realised what gems that Tilly and Brush are and how lucky we are to have them.

And to anyone who wants rid, I would just ask who they would bring in?

Absalutely fantastic post, I back you 100% on that as well, Steve Tilson is a quality manager and the longest serving manager of our club, sacking him after a few games where we have lost is not going to help us at all. Green rep for the post, supurb! :clap: :clap: :clap:
 

choggy

Coach
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Messages
561
Location
London
I'd get rid of Martin, Tilson and Brush and replace them with Vic Jobson and Dick Bate. Those were the days...
 

TrueBlue

Save Our Southend
Joined
Oct 26, 2003
Messages
22,507
Location
Hockley now on loan to Rayleigh
I've remained quiet on this subject so far, and this is partially because I find it difficult to put myself in either the "Tilly in" or "Tilly out" corners. Despite believing that Tilson shouldn't be sacked, I become slightly irritated with the same old arguments being levelled by his ardent supporters: "Well who would you bring in?!". Now this argument would be all well and good, except it's ****. And it's **** for a couple of reasons.

1) It implies that a potentially 'good' manager for Southend United is merely one who has a good past record. Now forgive me for my ignorance, but what exactly was Steve Tilson's record before he took over at Southend? His supporters can't have it both ways: you can't praise him for being our best ever manager, and then say that we should never look to appoint someone who doesn't have a better manager than our current one.

2) It implies that it is a poster's obligation to come up with a replacement manager - people on here should feel entirely justified in posting that they would like Tilson to be sacked, without having to back up their claims of his under-performance with a managerial short-list.

Furthermore, those who cite Tilson's record as a reason for outrage when the question of whether he should stay irritate me a bit. It's all very well saying that he achieved back-to-back promotions, but you all seem to conveniently forget the relegation. Yes, we over-achieved getting to the Championship, but that doesn't mean that we should feel completely happy to see the progress this club has made slowly slip away again. Also, using the one-off match against Man Utd. as a reason to keep Tilson is comcial - there are dreadful managers who have guided their teams to cup upsets in the past, that doesn't mean they were above being sacked.

Talk of 'continuity' being the key also raises a few issues. 1) We have had anything but continuity on the pitch in recent seasons, with Tilson unable to keep a settled side, for one reason or another. The reliance on loan players doesn't send out the message of a club on the way up, rather of one scrapping around to try and stay at their current level. 2) When people say that 'the most successful clubs are ones who have kept their managers' - well no ****ing ****. A successful manager will generally not be sacked, so it is rather that the manager has continued to be successful, than the conintuity itself breeding success.

However, this said, I would stick with Tilson. He has a certain something - it's certainly not eloquence, and from what I've seen, it's not a tactical mastermind, but it IS something. And we should keep on to him, at least until the end of this season, to give him a chance to keep hold of one of his achievements - promotion to League 1. Now this means putting up with some of his incredibly annoying decisions - Barrett back in the side, fantastic - and mind-bendingly stupid post-match interviews. But with the decision to keep Tilson, comes a duty to not do stupid things at matches - like boo his decisions (Walker), or start stupid chants. However, it does not mean that people who raise the issue of him being sacked are laughed at, ignored, or made fun of.

Thankfully, ShrimperZone has been better at that last point than normal over the last couple of days.


Sir you need a drink, I am not as well thought out as you when it comes to posting but with any luck that will show the Tilson love in crew that there is a different side to everything!
 

TrueBlue

Save Our Southend
Joined
Oct 26, 2003
Messages
22,507
Location
Hockley now on loan to Rayleigh
I agree with you there. He is a great manager and because he has lost a few games, some idiots who are impatient and have probably recently become southend united fans think he should go. Let us not join in with the likes of Newcastle or Tottenham who fire managers when they haven't won in 3 games! UTP :support:

Yeah I am an idiot mate and only recently became a Southend fan.....


Pillock
 

Firestorm

Pedant
Joined
Oct 25, 2003
Messages
15,217
Location
Immersed in the accounts
Personally I can't see a better alternative. Were we to sack the management team because of our current position , there would be only two ways the replacement could improve things, 1) get more out of the players we have 2) Get better players in.

Given that we have little money and any money we currently have will be rinsed in the compo for T&B, it would be either loans or stick with what we have got and I can't think of anyone out there who want to take the job on under those circumstances, certainly one who could actually get us up the league.

Times are tough, the entire future of the club as anything other than a basement leagues team with odd forays into the upper realms (which basically sumarises our entire history ) is dependent on something ,which tbh, is a speculative punt in the retail / property market. However for this punt to have any hope of success, we need to be prudent for a season or two. Mid table in league 1 will be a small price to pay if FF comes off and the money comes into the club. If RM doesn't pull the bunny from the hat then Mid Table in league 1 will be a good result anyway...

The only time to change, IMHO, is if we drop this year, and primarily that would be to inject confidence back into the fans to get them through the gates / buying tickets to keep the FF dream alive for a little longer
 

fbm

Blue tinted optimist⭐
Joined
Oct 28, 2003
Messages
8,818
Location
Cloud cuckoo land
Ok... something else to ponder.

How would we all feel if Tilly and Brush get poached in January by a "bigger" club by making them offers they can't refuse?

Would the Tilson Out brigade be pleased? I would guess not.

And whilst I respect the view that a manager shouldn't be immune from criticism just because he has done a good job in the past (previous success is no guarantee of future success, after all) I DO think it should buy the managers a little bit more time before the axe gets sharpened.

And to disagree slightly with RC, it IS all about the recent results although I take and agree with the point about the defence. If we had won all those games 3-2 or 4-3 we'd be near the top and this conversation wouldn't be happening; instead we'd be discussing how we could stop leaking goals. Tilson out wouldn't feature anywhere.
 

BILLERICAY BLUE

RoseTinted Brigade Member⭐
Joined
Oct 28, 2003
Messages
11,998
Location
Have a guess....
Some people have very short memories. The same discussion cropped up after the NYD defeat by BR last season, people were up-in-arms about how we were going to relegated etc. Please remember what happened after that game, and think about it now.....
 
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
1,761
Location
i live in westcliff
Oh my God - yes it's (yet) another Steve Tilson thread... and I would like to say that in making this I am only too well aware that this is a public forum and everyone is entitled to their opinion.

But Christ there is a lot of tripe spouted on here.

OK, lets start just by recapping on two facts:

1) Steve Tilson and Paul Brush have been the most successful management team in SUFC history and have won more stuff in their short reign than everyone else put together
2) Under their leadership we have achieved our best ever result, won our highest ranking trophy, reached the quarter finals of a major domestic competition for the first time and played at the Milstad 3 times (would have been Wembley if it had been finished).

Now for something that can't be proved as a fact but wouldn't probably get much argument against; Steve Tilson and Paul Brush work much better as a team than they would do individually. That in my opinion is actually quite important.

It's important because if Ron Martin IS thinking of replacing them (which I am sure he isn't) then who to bring in is of paramount importance. Which managers are currently available? Any ex-Prem manager is a non starter so we won't even bother with the likes of Roy Keane. What about Paul Jewell, Aidy Boothroyd, Alan Pardew, Iain Dowie or Billy Davies? Any of those would be decent appointments but we stand as much chance of getting them as signing Steven Gerrard.

Colin Calderwood? Gary McAllister? If they can't do it at Forest and Leeds they aren't going to work at SUFC, are they?

Glen Roeder's time is surely numbered at Norwich but I think we would all shake our heads in horror if he was anywhere near the post.

So it's a lower league manager then. But hang on... who is one of the longest serving managers in leagues one and two, 8th longest serving in all leagues and certainly one of the most respected outside the CCC?

Oh... thats Steve Tilson.

After the 5 years we have had if we got rid of Tilly now we would be the laughing stock of football.

He has had to rebuild the side following last years departures. Our strange transfer system has meant he has had to rely on loans and has also had incredible trouble recruiting players to the club. Plymouth have the same trouble, you know. Their geography doesn't help but they are a much bigger club than we are and are in the CCC which you would think would count for something. But just read recent interviews by their manager Paul Sturrock and it's a familiar tale.

So we have no ideal replacement for the Tilly and Brush partnership. Not a good start, is it?

And what do we honestly think will happen if we do get rid? We'll probably have a honeymoon period of 3 or 4 games and then will find our level again. So do we change the manager again? And then again? Hang on, that's what Man City have done and their fans are crying out for stability. All teams go through good and bad patches and this is just one of the latter. We'll come out of it eventually. And if Tilly thinks he can't take the club any further, he'll be the first to say so. He needs to be given time for his new team to gel. Hopefully Harding, Christophe and Sawyer will become permanent fixtures soon which will help.

So, why was it we wanted shot of him again? Oh yes, because we have a run of a few bad results. That was it.

Trust me... he's going nowhere. Not if Ron's got anything to do with it. It's about time some fans realised what gems that Tilly and Brush are and how lucky we are to have them.

And to anyone who wants rid, I would just ask who they would bring in?


great post absolutely spot on mate, there is someone responsible for the demise of this squad and our awful drop in standards and form and thats RM the man im not allowed to spak no ill of, crippled our team by woefully creating a bare thread squad that reminds me of the alvin martin days, (without the exception of neville roache!!) but really people tilly and brush are certainlynot to blame, anyway well be in the new ground by the end of next year wont we cricko so all the doom and glooom will be lifted
 
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