Tuition fees

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I'm not debating your point that the fees are too high even though the majority will never fully pay back the loan, just pointing out the incorrect assumption that tuition fees were brought in by the conservative government when in fact it was Labour.

I don't think there are many people that are not aware of that, it the extremity of the fees and the interest rates and the fact we as a nation will end up paying in the long run that is a bigger issue than the principle of free University education (which is the current Labour Party offer anyway).

 

[Sandbach Shrimper]

I have a bee in my bonnet about this issue. The whole higher education system needs a completel overhaul and I'm glad the government's finally looking into it. We have too many students, too many pointless degrees and too many 'universities'. The current loan model is not sustainable as the government's debt is just going to keep increasing because so many graduates won't pay back all of their loans.

Tony Blair's stupid 50% target has devalued having a degree and turned the whole thing into a racket. There's a massive mismatch between the needs of the economy and what the education system is producing at the moment. Too many young people who aren't academic are being pushed into going to 'uni' by parents or teachers rather than being given information about other options. If the country is to thrive after Brexit then we need to be giving young people useful skills and training, not worthless degrees in sociology or sports journalism.

I also agree with Damian Hinds' idea of having more two-year courses. Tinks mentioned her daughter and there are a lot of arts/humanities courses where students only have a few hours of lectures a week - these could easily be condensed into two years, saving everyone money.

 

[Member]

arts/humanities courses with 'only a few hours of lectures a week' are still a full time course where the requirement is to be doing a ton of reading, individual and group work, essays and assignments etc. Plus there is also time set aside in the week (Wednesday afternoons typically) for sports, and students will be working/participating in other activities and societies etc.

Mr Plow - you're right about the tuition fees, I meant the increase of the cap to £9,000pa.

 

[Rob Noxious]

Actually,the figure was 8.4 % in HE (Higher Education) when I started my degree course in 1971.

Education is, of course, a basic right.It also benefits society as a whole.Speaking as the oldest of three brothers from a working class background, who all studied at degree level, (one of us at Cambridge), I'm quite certain that this would not have been possible for my family, had our widowed mother had to pay for tuition fees and had there been no maintenance grant back in the 70's.

Not me, everyone - it's "the other one," i.e. the renegade running dog class traitor.

 

[Benfleet A1]

Not me, everyone - it's "the other one," i.e. the renegade running dog class traitor.

You mean he hasn't got a cat?

 

[rigsby]

Cambridge.......That's the one where all the spies and traitors came from.....Isn't it?

 

[Mad Cyril]

http://www.bbc.com/news/education-43106736

No question in my mind, that tuition fees should be free,as they are today in Germany etc and as they were in my youth,back in the early 70's, when I studied for a degree.Maintenance grants also need to be brought back.Thoughts?

My initial thought is how are you going to contribute to paying for this from Spain?

 

[rigsby]

Actually it turns out not many are contributing from the EU. Some of them believe they won't have to pay back their fees after Brexit.

Apparently Romanians are some of the worst offenders, which will of course burden the millennials a bit further. Of course you certainly don't need a degree level education to have seen that one coming.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Tuition fees were introduced by Labour in 1998 who then raised the cap in 2004 under the Higher Education Act. In 2009 Labour set up the Browne Review which is now why the majority of fees are over £9000.

They were indeed.But they were raised to their current criminal levels By Cameron's coalition government after 2010.The Tories huge loss of support among young people at last year's GE to Labour, is precisely why the Tories are now trying to fix the problem before the next GE.Expect another review soon.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

My initial thought is how are you going to contribute to paying for this from Spain?

Both our young,adult daughters would appear to have finished their HE.However,in answer to your question, I still receive a (small) pension from the UK.HMG are welcome to raid that as necessary.:winking:

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Cambridge.......That's the one where all the spies and traitors came from.....Isn't it?

Ha! I'll have you know our other brother has apparently been to a Garden Party with the Queen.Wait a minute...:whistling:

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Were you off the day they taught students how to spend the word 'tuition'?

No but you can change the obvious typo in the thread title (whereas, as you know I can't).Ho,ho.:raspberry:

 

[Uncle Leo]

No but you can change the obvious typo in the thread title (whereas, as you know) I can't.Ho,ho.:raspberry:

And I shall.

 

[Uncle Leo]

arts/humanities courses with 'only a few hours of lectures a week' are still a full time course where the requirement is to be doing a ton of reading, individual and group work, essays and assignments etc. Plus there is also time set aside in the week (Wednesday afternoons typically) for sports, and students will be working/participating in other activities and societies etc.

Mr Plow - you're right about the tuition fees, I meant the increase of the cap to £9,000pa.

I see your point Pubey, but thinking back to my personal experience (a looooong time ago!) and indeed that of my mates who also did arts/humanities courses, I reckon our courses all could have been fitted in to two years. In my penultimate term, I had two hours of seminars every other week.

 

[Napster]

I see your point Pubey, but thinking back to my personal experience (a looooong time ago!) and indeed that of my mates who also did arts/humanities courses, I reckon our courses all could have been fitted in to two years. In my penultimate term, I had two hours of seminars every other week.

I did a 4 year course, which could easily have been 3.

 

[Member]

I see your point Pubey, but thinking back to my personal experience (a looooong time ago!) and indeed that of my mates who also did arts/humanities courses, I reckon our courses all could have been fitted in to two years. In my penultimate term, I had two hours of seminars every other week.

Yep I definitely think there's a case for either shortened/focussed studies and qualifications, or more joint honours courses or courses with a vocationally applied third year with a dissertation/internship element. I think there probably is the case that some universities are stringing things out. It's something I've noticed at postgraduate level a little bit as well.

One thing that isn't covered though is that a more intensive teaching focus would have an impact on the supply side. Lecturing may only be a small part of an academic's role and significantly altering that would have implications for their research and other activities. Often the best lecturers (not exclusively) are the ones who can place their teaching in context - so for example having a physio lecturer who has a clinical practice and research interests is going to be able to draw from that to put the 'why' behind the 'what' and 'how'. Or having an engineer lecturer who has a consultancy role with Airbus or Tata etc. I didn't go into academia to be a lecturer, but I enjoyed it as 20% of my time over 8 years. If my funding and role was much more closely aligned to teaching and it was the majority of my time, I would have felt that I was just cranking the handle and not really being creative.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I see your point Pubey, but thinking back to my personal experience (a looooong time ago!) and indeed that of my mates who also did arts/humanities courses, I reckon our courses all could have been fitted in to two years. In my penultimate term, I had two hours of seminars every other week.

I did a 4 year course, which could easily have been 3.

Yep I definitely think there's a case for either shortened/focussed studies and qualifications, or more joint honours courses or courses with a vocationally applied third year with a dissertation/internship element. I think there probably is the case that some universities are stringing things out. It's something I've noticed at postgraduate level a little bit as well.

One thing that isn't covered though is that a more intensive teaching focus would have an impact on the supply side. Lecturing may only be a small part of an academic's role and significantly altering that would have implications for their research and other activities. Often the best lecturers (not exclusively) are the ones who can place their teaching in context - so for example having a physio lecturer who has a clinical practice and research interests is going to be able to draw from that to put the 'why' behind the 'what' and 'how'. Or having an engineer lecturer who has a consultancy role with Airbus or Tata etc. I didn't go into academia to be a lecturer, but I enjoyed it as 20% of my time over 8 years. If my funding and role was much more closely aligned to teaching and it was the majority of my time, I would have felt that I was just cranking the handle and not really being creative.

Can't really agree with the idea of shortened degree courses.You need the three years to think and read etc.

FWIW,at Brum Poly we were attending a lot more lectures,seminars and writing more essays than students on an equivalent course at Brum Uni (one of my fellow undergraduates was married to a lass studying there).Presumably the powers that be, thought we were thicker (or needed to improve our spelling).:winking:

 

[Uncle Leo]

Can't really agree with the idea of shortened degree courses.You need the three years to think and read etc.

Of course there is thinking and reading time outside of formal seminars/lectures. But for many students, a great deal of time is spent getting ****ed and having a laugh. That's how it was for me and it was great but from a strictly academic point of view, there was a lot of downtime in those three years.

Pubey's points re the time pressures on those teaching make sense, I hadn't really considered that angle.

 

[Mad Cyril]

A graduate tax please with no way out for those with wealthy parents.

 

[Rob Noxious]

You mean he hasn't got a cat?

That's correct, Al. They're not economically productive.