Welfare state

[Hotman]

Is it 'well fair?' Would a welfare loan, perhaps similar to student loans (repayable if future earnings above a certain point) be more appropriate? Just a thought, and not a well developed one at the moment...

 

[Pubey]

Is it 'well fair?' Would a welfare loan, perhaps similar to student loans (repayable if future earnings above a certain point) be more appropriate? Just a thought, and not a well developed one at the moment...

Seeing as the majority of the welfare state is spent providing state pensions, I'm not exactly sure how a repayment scheme would work.

 

[Hotman]

Wouldn't expect repayment from anyone without future earnings. However, surely it would be fair for lets say an 80 year old lottery winner to repay a % of future interest?

But Pubey, clearly this is more aimed at unemployment / tax credits / housing benefits, which should only be a temporary situation...

 

[MK Shrimper]

Wouldn't expect repayment from anyone without future earnings. However, surely it would be fair for lets say an 80 year old lottery winner to repay a % of future interest?

But Pubey, clearly this is more aimed at unemployment / tax credits / housing benefits, which should only be a temporary situation...

I think I've paid enough into the system after 25 years or work for my wife to get her maternity pay, our child benefit and the WORKING tax credits that we used to get.

You system will require some form of means testing which will cost substantially more than it would save. It would also be another reason for the long-term unemployed not to bother getting a job.

 

[Mad Cyril]

Pensioners get too much as it is. If you can afford to go on cruises and spend winter in the Algarve then you shouldn't be entitled to state pensions and winter fuel allowances.

The huge savings should be used to increase living standards for genuinely poor pensioners and provide opportunities for the young.

 

[Pubey]

Pensioners get too much as it is. If you can afford to go on cruises and spend winter in the Algarve then you shouldn't be entitled to state pensions and winter fuel allowances.

The huge savings should be used to increase living standards for genuinely poor pensioners and provide opportunities for the young.

Bingo.

My Grandparents are minted. No need for them to be getting a state pension.

 

[MK Shrimper]

Agreed, but as I've already stated, means testing costs substantially more than it saves. Perhaps you could convince your grandparents to donate their pensions to Age Concern or alike?

 

[Pubey]

Agreed, but as I've already stated, means testing costs substantially more than it saves. Perhaps you could convince your grandparents to donate their pensions to Age Concern or alike?

My grandparents do a lot for charity, and donate a lot too.

It still left them enough to spend the last 3 weeks whale-watching in Alaska.

I don't get why we tax wealthy people to then give them a free bus pass and winter fuel allowance once they've retired?! Tax them less and let them save/plan for the future.

Does it really need means testing? Get rid of the state pension, boost the pension credit a bit for those who aren't drawing a private pension.

 

[Hotman]

I think I've paid enough into the system after 25 years or work for my wife to get her maternity pay, our child benefit and the WORKING tax credits that we used to get.

You system will require some form of means testing which will cost substantially more than it would save. It would also be another reason for the long-term unemployed not to bother getting a job.

Surely you'd use the same system as student loans? And set the bar high enough and it will be no disincentive.

TBH re: maternity pay, it's irrelevant how much you've paid in... unless you're carrying.

 

[Hotman]

My grandparents do a lot for charity, and donate a lot too.

It still left them enough to spend the last 3 weeks whale-watching in Alaska.

I don't get why we tax wealthy people to then give them a free bus pass and winter fuel allowance once they've retired?! Tax them less and let them save/plan for the future.

Does it really need means testing? Get rid of the state pension, boost the pension credit a bit for those who aren't drawing a private pension.

This :smile:

 

[South Bank Hank]

Pensioners get too much as it is. If you can afford to go on cruises and spend winter in the Algarve then you shouldn't be entitled to state pensions and winter fuel allowances.

The huge savings should be used to increase living standards for genuinely poor pensioners and provide opportunities for the young.

Bingo.

My Grandparents are minted. No need for them to be getting a state pension.

How do you means test these wealthy pensioners - on their pension income, previous income, money in the bank?
I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong in the approach but doesn't this disincentivise people from either investing in a pension when they're younger or saving for the future?

Genuine question: How do you make account for those scrimping through life to make savings for their future against those living beyond their means who find they've got nothing left to show for it?

 

[Pubey]

How do you means test these wealthy pensioners - on their pension income, previous income, money in the bank?
I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong in the approach but doesn't this disincentivise people from either investing in a pension when they're younger or saving for the future?

Pension Income.

Genuine question: How do you make account for those scrimping through life to make savings for their future against those living beyond their means who find they've got nothing left to show for it?

Dunno!

 

[South Bank Hank]

Dunno!

Fair enough. I liked your earlier answer anyway.

:thumbsup:

 

[steveo]

I don't get why we tax wealthy people to then give them a free bus pass and winter fuel allowance once they've retired?! Tax them less and let them save/plan for the future.

So two couples earn the same money. Couple A, live within their means, save for their retirement years and pay off their mortgage.

Couple B, smoke and drink, go on fancy holidays and drive flash motors. Reach retirement age with an outstanding mortgage.

Couple A get a smaller pension than couple B although they have contributed equal amounts into the system.

How is that fair?

 

[Mad Cyril]

So two couples earn the same money. Couple A, live within their means, save for their retirement years and pay off their mortgage.

Couple B, smoke and drink, go on fancy holidays and drive flash motors. Reach retirement age with an outstanding mortgage.

Couple A get a smaller pension than couple B although they have contributed equal amounts into the system.

How is that fair?

Social security isn't a savings scheme, it is a safety net.

It's not about what you contribute its about what you need. There will always be some that abuse the system but there will be many more genuine cases.

I hope I never need a transplant operation but I don't begrudge my tax contributions paying for those that do.

 

[steveo]

Social security isn't a savings scheme, it is a safety net.

It's not about what you contribute its about what you need. There will always be some that abuse the system but there will be many more genuine cases.

I hope I never need a transplant operation but I don't begrudge my tax contributions paying for those that do.

that may be the case Cyril, so the morale of the story is fritter all your money away and let the state look after you. Not right.

 

[Mad Cyril]

that may be the case Cyril, so the morale of the story is fritter all your money away and let the state look after you. Not right.

It depends what quality of life you want I suppose.

I don't know anyone who would want to live solely on the state pension given a choice.

 

[steveo]

It depends what quality of life you want I suppose.

I don't know anyone who would want to live solely on the state pension given a choice.

Not an issue for you now you are a contractor Cyril.

 

[MK Shrimper]

that may be the case Cyril, so the morale of the story is fritter all your money away and let the state look after you. Not right.

How much VAT have they paid over those who lived frugally? Especially if they smoke & drink. They've probably made a greater contribution to the running of the country.

 

[South Bank Hank]

How much VAT have they paid over those who lived frugally? Especially if they smoke & drink. They've probably made a greater contribution to the running of the country.

"I'm investing in our future here!!"