2017 General Election thread

[londonblue]

No idea but it’s a lot of money to buy the votes of a party that will always vote for Tory policies anyway, to gain a position that the Tories had anyway until May decided to ignore the fix term rule.

It’s allying themselves with a sectarian party whose social policies do not tie in with the rest of the UK, it’s not signed by the PM (because she is not sticking around?), it sends a signal to the EU that out government are desperate enough to spend so long coming up with a deal that is so expensive, it sends a bad message to the Republican community in NI, it is a green light to all sorts of interest groups that there actually is a magic money tree after all. In an attempt to hold this government together they are opening themselves up to all sorts of new issues. Yet another bad decision from May.

As a % of GDP – no idea, but the costs go way beyond that.

£2.849 trillion.

So this is .035%.

Incidentally, it's the same argument I got annoyed with during the referendum. The amount we pay the EU is about 0.5% of GDP, but you wouldn't hear the Daily Fail mention that bit.

Same is true here. Real numbers are a red herring.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

£2.849 trillion.

So this is .035%.

Incidentally, it's the same argument I got annoyed with during the referendum. The amount we pay the EU is about 0.5% of GDP, but you wouldn't hear the Daily Fail mention that bit.

Same is true here. Real numbers are a red herring.

What is your opinion of the deal in financial, social and democratic terms? Overall are you pleased that the Tories have cut a deal with the DUP?

 

[Firestorm]

A Billion is three weeks of the Brexit money which should be going to the NHS , Nigel and Boris wont be happy.....

 

[londonblue]

What is your opinion of the deal in financial, social and democratic terms? Overall are you pleased that the Tories have cut a deal with the DUP?

I haven't read anything. I'm at work. However, you brought up the fact it will cost £1bn. All I've done is point out that's peanuts. You may be right that there are other costs, but let me remind you of what I was answering:

£1 billion it is costing us for the DUP to prop up the Tories after she threw away the Commons majority that was given to her for free. Two and a half weeks of negotiations which missed deadlines of the start of the EU negotiations and the Queens Speech and that is the outcome. Omni-shambles.

You didn't mention the other intangibles. You focused on the financials, which are peanuts.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I haven't read anything. I'm at work. However, you brought up the fact it will cost £1bn. All I've done is point out that's peanuts. You may be right that there are other costs, but let me remind you of what I was answering:



You didn't mention the other intangibles. You focused on the financials, which are peanuts.

I'm at work too but the news of the deal came out when I was at lunch. £1 billion is a lot of money to buy something you already had.

The money and the fact it has actually finally been signed is the only news though - who the DUP are and why the Tories feel the need to cut a deal with them is not news. Everyone with an interest in politics already had an opinion on that.

You have an interest in politics so I was asking your opinion.

 

[haveaguiness]

What I find so infuriating about this "deal" is that is £1 billion that the Tories couldn't find for any of the vital services in this country, yet they are able to find it to cling on to power. Whilst it may be "peanuts" it is also a huge chunk of money to something like the NHS to help fund nurses, doctors etc.

Added on top of this that there are a lot of cost cutting policies that have now been dropped from the Tory manifesto in order to get through the Queen's Speech; so the big question is, how much extra borrowing are the Tories now going to have to do over the next 5 years in order to pay for it all?

 

[MK Shrimper]

I hope the Tories are careful. God forbid the Good Friday agreement breaks down and the IRA emerge again. There's enough blood of the streets of late.

 

[Benfleet A1]

What is your opinion of the deal in financial, social and democratic terms? Overall are you pleased that the Tories have cut a deal with the DUP?

No worse than the one both Brown and Milliband tried to cut. Anyway, the money is for NI not the DUP.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

No worse than the one both Brown and Milliband tried to cut. Anyway, the money is for NI not the DUP.

what were the details of that then? how do the two deals compare?

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

£2.849 trillion.

So this is .035%.

Incidentally, it's the same argument I got annoyed with during the referendum. The amount we pay the EU is about 0.5% of GDP, but you wouldn't hear the Daily Fail mention that bit.

Same is true here. Real numbers are a red herring.

so for 0.035% of GDP May could have given every nurse in the UK a £1,500 pay rise and that may have convinced enough people to vote Tory and she would have had to bribe the DUP to back them.
Cause and effect.

 

[londonblue]

so for 0.035% of GDP May could have given every nurse in the UK a £1,500 pay rise and that may have convinced enough people to vote Tory and she would have had to bribe the DUP to back them.
Cause and effect.

They could do that anyway. Very poor argument. And it took you an extra 7 hours from your original response to come up with that?

 

[Benfleet A1]

what were the details of that then? how do the two deals compare?

Details somewhat sketchey but I would think that more than a hearty handshake was offered. The SNP were chanceing their arm as well it seems.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

They could do that anyway. Very poor argument. And it took you an extra 7 hours from your original response to come up with that?

oh wow, the Shrimperzone judging panel - is that how we discuss things now? The person who won't stop talking about one particular type of racism and when I ask him about aaaaall the other types of racism he says it's none of my business. The person who claims not to deflect criticism of the Tories yet on a regular basis deflects criticism from the Tories - after two and a half weeks of discussion the Tories have spent £1 billion of tax payer money on 10 votes to prop up their party - 10 votes from homophobic, climate change deniers who deny women the rights over their own bodies, 10 votes from one side of the conflict in Northern Ireland, 10 votes that let the EU know how bad our government are at negotiations, 10 votes that lets every part of the UK know that contrary to popular belief there is a magic money tree and you just need an angle to get your chunk.

Your reaction to this - £1 billion is not a big % of GDP


I was at work so I didn't write down everything I will ever think about this set up in my first post. I fully accept that you were at work too and that '£1 billion is not a big % of GDP' was your first thought but unlikely to be your last thought on the matter. Feel free to share your opinion though as I'm sure you don't just see it as a financial transaction that is low value - as a percentage of GDP.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Q. When is a magic money tree not a magic money tree?

A.When a billion pound bung can be found for the DUP.:winking:

 

[londonblue]

oh wow, the Shrimperzone judging panel - is that how we discuss things now? The person who won't stop talking about one particular type of racism and when I ask him about aaaaall the other types of racism he says it's none of my business. The person who claims not to deflect criticism of the Tories yet on a regular basis deflects criticism from the Tories - after two and a half weeks of discussion the Tories have spent £1 billion of tax payer money on 10 votes to prop up their party - 10 votes from homophobic, climate change deniers who deny women the rights over their own bodies, 10 votes from one side of the conflict in Northern Ireland, 10 votes that let the EU know how bad our government are at negotiations, 10 votes that lets every part of the UK know that contrary to popular belief there is a magic money tree and you just need an angle to get your chunk.

Your reaction to this - £1 billion is not a big % of GDP


I was at work so I didn't write down everything I will ever think about this set up in my first post. I fully accept that you were at work too and that '£1 billion is not a big % of GDP' was your first thought but unlikely to be your last thought on the matter. Feel free to share your opinion though as I'm sure you don't just see it as a financial transaction that is low value - as a percentage of GDP.

I'm not deflecting criticism of the tories. I'm criticising your poor attempts at criticising them. There are plenty of things they get wrong, but this is simply not a big issue. £1bn sounds like a lot, but it isn't in real terms. The fact is that money won't have made any difference to the NHS or schools for that matter because it simply wouldn't have been spent. All political parties go about things the wrong way around. They don't budget in the true sense of the word: they work out what they can get away with charging in tax and then set the budget. They don't work out what they need and then tax accordingly. This money would simply not have been spent. Moreover, it doesn't go to the DUP, it goes to NI in general, and who can blame the DUP for that? Are you saying that if Corduroy went into a coalition he wouldn't make any concessions to whomever he was sharing power with?

I think you're barking up the wrong tree, because as you see it the tories are teetering on the brink and you want to push them over the edge. I guess in your world every little helps, but it really comes over as "if you throw enough **** at the wall some of it will stick." Moreover, you're acting like the right wing tabloid press when they talk about the amount of benefit fraud there is. The numbers make it sound awful, but as a percentage it really isn't that bad. I hate it when they do that. I hate it when anyone does that.

(As an aside this whole episode is a case study in why I don't like PR in its purest form. Small parties always end up with a disproportionate amount of power.)

 

[rigsby]

oh wow, the Shrimperzone judging panel - is that how we discuss things now? The person who won't stop talking about one particular type of racism and when I ask him about aaaaall the other types of racism he says it's none of my business. The person who claims not to deflect criticism of the Tories yet on a regular basis deflects criticism from the Tories - after two and a half weeks of discussion the Tories have spent £1 billion of tax payer money on 10 votes to prop up their party - 10 votes from homophobic, climate change deniers who deny women the rights over their own bodies, 10 votes from one side of the conflict in Northern Ireland, 10 votes that let the EU know how bad our government are at negotiations, 10 votes that lets every part of the UK know that contrary to popular belief there is a magic money tree and you just need an angle to get your chunk.

Your reaction to this - £1 billion is not a big % of GDP


I was at work so I didn't write down everything I will ever think about this set up in my first post. I fully accept that you were at work too and that '£1 billion is not a big % of GDP' was your first thought but unlikely to be your last thought on the matter. Feel free to share your opinion though as I'm sure you don't just see it as a financial transaction that is low value - as a percentage of GDP.

That's your version of witchcraft.

 

[Pubey]

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I'm not deflecting criticism of the tories. I'm criticising your poor attempts at criticising them. There are plenty of things they get wrong, but this is simply not a big issue. £1bn sounds like a lot, but it isn't in real terms. The fact is that money won't have made any difference to the NHS or schools for that matter because it simply wouldn't have been spent. All political parties go about things the wrong way around. They don't budget in the true sense of the word: they work out what they can get away with charging in tax and then set the budget. They don't work out what they need and then tax accordingly. This money would simply not have been spent. Moreover, it doesn't go to the DUP, it goes to NI in general, and who can blame the DUP for that? Are you saying that if Corduroy went into a coalition he wouldn't make any concessions to whomever he was sharing power with?

I think you're barking up the wrong tree, because as you see it the tories are teetering on the brink and you want to push them over the edge. I guess in your world every little helps, but it really comes over as "if you throw enough **** at the wall some of it will stick." Moreover, you're acting like the right wing tabloid press when they talk about the amount of benefit fraud there is. The numbers make it sound awful, but as a percentage it really isn't that bad. I hate it when they do that. I hate it when anyone does that.

(As an aside this whole episode is a case study in why I don't like PR in its purest form. Small parties always end up with a disproportionate amount of power.)

But you are still talking solely about the money, there is so much more to it than that. The figure of £1bn may sound insignificant to you but there are so many bad policies pushed through as necessary cost saving measures that are costed at way below this figure. Even the Tory backing Sun have predicted the bill will be £24bn over 5 years - and they want a Tory government!

There are many parts of the UK more deprived who will be appalled that their needs are overlooked due to austerity but not in NI. How can the government justify cuts and underinvestment elsewhere after this?


If they were not incompetent at negotiations they could have had this deal done and the 'infrastructure investment' announced in the Queens Speech. What kind of government puts their plans for the next 2 years to Parliament and then a couple of days later announces extra polices not put to Parliament?


There is the potential impact on the peace process in Northern Ireland.


There is the fact that DUP have policies and views that are at odds with policy and laws in the rest of the UK.




The fact that the Tory election campaign was just MPs saying 'coalition of chaos' and 'magic money tree' over and over again and then.....


The fact this money has not been budgeted - where will it come from?


How very bad at negotiations this makes the government look at the very time where we need one that seems good at negotiations.


You may well be correct that my efforts at criticising this deal are poor - so go ahead - criticise it yourself, or justify if that is your view. School me in political debate please, I'm always willing to learn new skills.

 

[londonblue]

]But you are still talking solely about the money[/B], there is so much more to it than that. The figure of £1bn may sound insignificant to you but there are so many bad policies pushed through as necessary cost saving measures that are costed at way below this figure. Even the Tory backing Sun have predicted the bill will be £24bn over 5 years - and they want a Tory government!

There are many parts of the UK more deprived who will be appalled that their needs are overlooked due to austerity but not in NI. How can the government justify cuts and underinvestment elsewhere after this?


If they were not incompetent at negotiations they could have had this deal done and the 'infrastructure investment' announced in the Queens Speech. What kind of government puts their plans for the next 2 years to Parliament and then a couple of days later announces extra polices not put to Parliament?


There is the potential impact on the peace process in Northern Ireland.


There is the fact that DUP have policies and views that are at odds with policy and laws in the rest of the UK.




The fact that the Tory election campaign was just MPs saying 'coalition of chaos' and 'magic money tree' over and over again and then.....


The fact this money has not been budgeted - where will it come from?


How very bad at negotiations this makes the government look at the very time where we need one that seems good at negotiations.


You may well be correct that my efforts at criticising this deal are poor - so go ahead - criticise it yourself, or justify if that is your view. School me in political debate please, I'm always willing to learn new skills.

I'll say it again, I was answering your point, which was solely about the money, until I pointed out the money is peanuts.

As it happens I agree with everything else. I was just answering the point about the money, which was the only point you made originally. I don't like it when the Daily Fail etc sensationalise things by mentioning an amount without putting it in context. You originally did the same.

 

[MK Shrimper]

I'll say it again, I was answering your point, which was solely about the money, until I pointed out the money is peanuts.

As it happens I agree with everything else. I was just answering the point about the money, which was the only point you made originally. I don't like it when the Daily Fail etc sensationalise things by mentioning an amount without putting it in context. You originally did the same.

It may be "peanuts" but it's still money that Scotland, Wales and the areas of England that are hugely underfunded aren't getting. It's a disgrace that this is allowed to be honest.