Bradford City fire

[Tangled up in Blue]

Nothing wrong with pointing out when someone has said something pretty disgusting. Man up and take the criticism on board, it's not just ESB who found your 'joke' of extremely poor taste.



The first thing that popped into his head was probably annoyance that someone had managed to post a Guardian link before him.

Frankly,I don't give a damm what you, ESB or Uncle Leo think.I'm not prepared to take lessons in pc moral outrage from any of you.

As far as I'm concerned, you can all do one.[video]https://youtu.be/oxupSZf0tOc[/video]

 

[chapperzUK]

Frankly,I don't give a damm what you, ESB or Uncle Leo think.I'm not prepared to take lessons in pc moral outrage from any of you.

As far as I'm concerned, you can all do one.

You should have ended with this ...

 

[Pubey]

Frankly,I don't give a damm what you, ESB or Uncle Leo think.I'm not prepared to take lessons in pc moral outrage from any of you.

As far as I'm concerned, you can all do one.[video]https://youtu.be/oxupSZf0tOc[/video]

 

[OldBlueLady]

Bloody hell guys, this is supposed to be a serious topic. Can we not get back on track please?

 

[Pubey]

Back on topic:

-How did he continually get insurance. Surely there'd be risk assessment/investigations?
-As BrettieAngel says, why do it when the ground is packed?
-These were old mills/factories. Were fires quite common back then?
-The commonly reported theory of wooden stand/rubbish under stand/cigarette makes sense

The coincidence is staggering, but there's also a lot that doesn't make sense if you want to follow the conspiracy to it's dreadful conclusion.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

Back on topic:

-How did he continually get insurance. Surely there'd be risk assessment/investigations?
-As BrettieAngel says, why do it when the ground is packed?
-These were old mills/factories. Were fires quite common back then?
-The commonly reported theory of wooden stand/rubbish under stand/cigarette makes sense

The coincidence is staggering, but there's also a lot that doesn't make sense if you want to follow the conspiracy to it's dreadful conclusion.

How did that never happen at any one of the other 91 league clubs? Surely some of them would have had the same wooden structure?

 

[mrsblue]

Back on topic:

-How did he continually get insurance. Surely there'd be risk assessment/investigations?
-As BrettieAngel says, why do it when the ground is packed?
-These were old mills/factories. Were fires quite common back then?
-The commonly reported theory of wooden stand/rubbish under stand/cigarette makes sense

The coincidence is staggering, but there's also a lot that doesn't make sense if you want to follow the conspiracy to it's dreadful conclusion.

The dropped fag theory seems far fetched,During a fag break today three of us tried this in the car park by dropping our fag ends onto newspaper and dried leaves..nothing happened apart from slight smouldering .The blaze at VP took hold in ferocious fashion,maybe the butt fell onto highly inflammable liquid?...Underneath that stand must have been some pile of tinder box rubbish..or something far more sinister.

 

[LCBB72]

The dropped fag theory seems far fetched,During a fag break today three of us tried this in the car park by dropping our fag ends onto newspaper and dried leaves..nothing happened apart from slight smouldering .The blaze at VP took hold in ferocious fashion,maybe the butt fell onto highly inflammable liquid?...Underneath that stand must have been some pile of tinder box rubbish..or something far more sinister.

It happend at Kings Cross Station in 1987 .

 

[OldBlueLady]

The dropped fag theory seems far fetched,During a fag break today three of us tried this in the car park by dropping our fag ends onto newspaper and dried leaves..nothing happened apart from slight smouldering .The blaze at VP took hold in ferocious fashion,maybe the butt fell onto highly inflammable liquid?...Underneath that stand must have been some pile of tinder box rubbish..or something far more sinister.

Having sat in the East Stand during the years when you WERE allowed to smoke in there, I am only surprised that it didn't happen at more grounds in all honesty. Wooden stand, wooden steps, wooden seats...cigarettes, cigars, pipes and matches. It could easily have happened though admittedly I don't think it would have spread quite as quickly, at least at Roots Hall.

 

[mrsblue]

Having sat in the East Stand during the years when you WERE allowed to smoke in there, I am only surprised that it didn't happen at more grounds in all honesty. Wooden stand, wooden steps, wooden seats...cigarettes, cigars, pipes and matches. It could easily have happened though admittedly I don't think it would have spread quite as quickly, at least at Roots Hall.

The East Stand as far as I am aware has no cracks or wood strinkage where any butt could fall through to the bowels of the stand ?We sometimes sit in the Blacks and it look's pretty sealed.Would a fag butt cause that inferno at VP ?27 million in claims and 9 fires is baffling.

 

[londonblue]

The dropped fag theory seems far fetched,During a fag break today three of us tried this in the car park by dropping our fag ends onto newspaper and dried leaves..nothing happened apart from slight smouldering .The blaze at VP took hold in ferocious fashion,maybe the butt fell onto highly inflammable liquid?...Underneath that stand must have been some pile of tinder box rubbish..or something far more sinister.

I think all you've proved is that it won't happen very often. It's only happened twice that I know of: Bradford and Kings Cross.

The fact that you tried and failed just shows why it doesn't happen very often. We've all seen pictures of house fires starting from a cigarette. It's no different, but not every cigarette that falls on a sofa will lead to a fire. It doesn't happen every time, but it can happen, and the consequences can be fatal.

 

[Uncle Leo]

The dropped fag theory seems far fetched,During a fag break today three of us tried this in the car park by dropping our fag ends onto newspaper and dried leaves..nothing happened apart from slight smouldering .The blaze at VP took hold in ferocious fashion,maybe the butt fell onto highly inflammable liquid?...Underneath that stand must have been some pile of tinder box rubbish..or something far more sinister.

Hell of a lot of debris under the stand at Bradford. After the fire a piece of newspaper was found dated 1971, so rubbish had been accumulating for at least 14 years prior to that tragic day.

 

[LCBB72]

Having sat in the East Stand during the years when you WERE allowed to smoke in there, I am only surprised that it didn't happen at more grounds in all honesty. Wooden stand, wooden steps, wooden seats...cigarettes, cigars, pipes and matches. It could easily have happened though admittedly I don't think it would have spread quite as quickly, at least at Roots Hall.

The mind bogles at what could be lieing in the depths of the East Stand , empty bottles from Ronnie Whelan , Colin Murphys book of football ideas, the War chest the list just goes on .

 

[OldBlueLady]

The mind bogles at what could be lieing in the depths of the East Stand , empty bottles from Ronnie Whelan , Colin Murphys book of football ideas, the War chest the list just goes on .

Our East Stand was a lot higher with toilet blocks, entrances, stairwells and things underneath it so I don't think it would have "accumulated" in the same way.

 

[rigsby]

The dropped fag theory seems far fetched,During a fag break today three of us tried this in the car park by dropping our fag ends onto newspaper and dried leaves..nothing happened apart from slight smouldering .The blaze at VP took hold in ferocious fashion,maybe the butt fell onto highly inflammable liquid?...Underneath that stand must have been some pile of tinder box rubbish..or something far more sinister.

That stand was a perfectly designed bonfire. Lots of old dry painted wood correctly stacked with plenty of space between each layer. Place under the wood 15yrs of old papers. Cover the hole thing with an open roof and a layer of tar. Now add a gentle breeze from the side and begin to drop fags and matches onto paper. If at first you don't succeed keep trying. Make sure there is no firefighting equipment or water and your bonfire will be a guaranteed success. The reason as you say the fire was so ferocious [flash over] was because of the radiated heat from the roof. There was no need to use an accelerant, which could be easily detected even back then.

Still not convinced, we all love a stat on the zone so did you know that in the forty years preceding the Kings Cross fire the London Fire Brigade had attended over 50 fires involving wooden escalators on the underground system. During the Kings Cross enquiry it was established that one of the escalators had had 18 previous undetected small fires all of which had burned themselves out.

Someone mentioned risk assessment earlier but the term had not been invented back then. Valley parade and Kings Cross were the disasters that were always going to happen.

 

[Uncle Leo]

The view from Bradford, some interesting posts here...

https://claretandbanter.uk/threads/...te-heginbotham-linked-to-earlier-fires.44550/

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

http://www.theguardian.com/football...fire-fifty-six-martin-fletcher-second-extract

A genuinely moving first hand account of the fire.

 

[londonblue]

That stand was a perfectly designed bonfire. Lots of old dry painted wood correctly stacked with plenty of space between each layer. Place under the wood 15yrs of old papers. Cover the hole thing with an open roof and a layer of tar. Now add a gentle breeze from the side and begin to drop fags and matches onto paper. If at first you don't succeed keep trying. Make sure there is no firefighting equipment or water and your bonfire will be a guaranteed success. The reason as you say the fire was so ferocious [flash over] was because of the radiated heat from the roof. There was no need to use an accelerant, which could be easily detected even back then.

Still not convinced, we all love a stat on the zone so did you know that in the forty years preceding the Kings Cross fire the London Fire Brigade had attended over 50 fires involving wooden escalators on the underground system. During the Kings Cross enquiry it was established that one of the escalators had had 18 previous undetected small fires all of which had burned themselves out.

Someone mentioned risk assessment earlier but the term had not been invented back then. Valley parade and Kings Cross were the disasters that were always going to happen.

Don't also forget all the rubbish that had built up there hadn't seen the light of day and any rain for years and years and years.

 

[AndyT]

http://www.theguardian.com/football...fire-fifty-six-martin-fletcher-second-extract

A genuinely moving first hand account of the fire.

Jeez, horrific!:sad:

 

[rigsby]

Just to be clear. I'm not saying that the Bradford fire could not have been arson. The stand and its lack of maintenance created a perfect fire scenario, accidental or deliberate. What I will say is that if someone had decided to torch the stand then a 6 year old with a box of matches could have easily achieved the end result. There was no need to use an accelerant.

Without access to the inquiry/fire investigation findings it is difficult to draw any meaningful conclusion. As we know police at the time often decided what result they wanted and made the evidence fit [not just Hillsborough].

The inquiry was definitely hasty to say the least. Were all avenues explored at the time or was there pressure to achieve a quick and cost saving conclusion. After all it was only 'football fans' who had died. Heginbotham's previous is alarming but some of those links do look a bit stretched.

Some of the causes considered at the time, should have been .
Accidental....Innocently dropping a cigarette or match
Stupidity..... drunken fan lights fag packet or flare.
Deliberate for financial gain.....By club owner or hired arsonist.
Deliberate for revenge.... By rival fan, it was their victory parade. Or revenge for say a 'Railway pub' type incident.
Murder... Could have been by a total nutter/arsonist who had nothing to do with football by just decided that a wooden stand with 4000 people in was a nice opportunity.

I know some have already pointed out, why would anyone start a fire whilst the stand is full of fans. Lots of crimes including arson can easily go wrong. Think of that complete C*** Mick Phillpot who killed six of his own children. A crude form of time delay could have easily failed. As the whole incident was caught on camera, one thing we do know for sure is the exact seat of the fire. Were all witnesses seated in that part of the stand traced?

One final and worrying coincidence about the hole disaster. If I was asked to burn down that stand with the same wind conditions on the day for a training exercise. I would light my fire in the exact area that the real fire started.