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Boris Johnson has now personally issued a statement: 'The Catalonian referendum is a matter for the Spanish government and people. Important that Spanish constitution respected and the rule of law upheld. Spain is a close ally and a good friend whose strength and unity matters to the UK'



Lots more footage of police brutality coming out - looks really out of control, and result being reported as 90% in favour of independence. If Spain had just let it happen they could have just ignored it - its unofficial, they have no need to do anything with the result. But their suppression of the vote and oppression of the public I think changes everything - this will now run and run.
 
This is great news for all those sons and grandsons of Guardia Civil troops, now working for the Spanish police, worried they wouldn't be able to carry on the family tradition of police brutality. But now they can continue to do their family history proud!
 
I guess this means ETA will be back as a terrorist force. Nice one Spain :thumbsup:
 
Polling going well over there. Rubber bullets and stun grenades all round at the moment. No mention of this from 'He Who Must Be Ignored' Must be hiding under the table........I mean leading the protests from the front.

Actually,I was in London/Sfend at the weekend.Just got back late last night.

Personally,I'm only in favour of Catalan independence through constitutional means, not through an illegal referendum.
 
it's like Franco is still in power

Not really he died in 1975-three years before I first came to Barna to work.I'd have to admit though that President Mariano Rajoy has been particularly insensitive (not to say stupid) in his handling of the crisis.

(Really poor internet connection today.Wonder if Madrid is trying to block Catalan independence that way). :winking:
 
Possiblly because Catalonia said it would declare independence within a couple of days of the result. I think this is going to run for a bit. Perhaps Junker will say something after he has slept off a couple of lunchtime bottles of claret.

The EU have already said (last week) quite categorically that this is an internal matter for Spain and they wouldn't recognise Catalaluña as an independent state anyway.

The referendum in Cataluña is illegal (under the 1978 Spanish constitution), unlike the one held in Scotland recently.
 
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Personally,I'm only in favour of Catalan independence through constitutional means, not through an illegal referendum.

What would happen if the referendum was conducted lawfully? Do you think Spain would give in (assuming the vote was for)?

Because the obvious next question is why have Spain not recognised the referendum? Why not allow a legal one? What have they got to lose?

(As you can see, I'm pretty new to this issue.)
 
What would happen if the referendum was conducted lawfully? Do you think Spain would give in (assuming the vote was for)?

Because the obvious next question is why have Spain not recognised the referendum? Why not allow a legal one? What have they got to lose?

(As you can see, I'm pretty new to this issue.)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ans-want-independence-and-what-is-spains-view

They're up in arms that they can't deport a certain Southend supporter, but fortunately for him & us he's pictures of King Juan Carlos in some comprimising positions. :stunned:
 
What would happen if the referendum was conducted lawfully? Do you think Spain would give in (assuming the vote was for)?

Because the obvious next question is why have Spain not recognised the referendum? Why not allow a legal one? What have they got to lose?

(As you can see, I'm pretty new to this issue.)

If the Catalans could get a 2/3 majority vote in the Spanish Parliament to make a change in the constitution, eg to have a refendum on independence then any such referendum would be quite lawfull.

They haven't even tried to do so,just unilaterally declared a referendum (and independence to follow within 48 hours of a yes vote).That's precisely why the vote was illegal.

There is precious little hard information about this in the English press or media, so it's not at all suprising that you're "new to the issue."
 
If the Catalans could get a 2/3 majority vote in the Spanish Parliament to make a change in the constitution, eg to have a refendum on independence then any such referendum would be quite lawfull.

They haven't even tried to do so,just unilaterally declared a referendum (and independence to follow within 48 hours of a yes vote).That's precisely why the vote was illegal.

There is precious little hard information about this in the English press or media, so it's not at all suprising that you're "new to the issue."

It seems to me a legal vote would be for independence? So I guess the question is why don't Spain want that? What have they got to lose?
 
It seems to me a legal vote would be for independence? So I guess the question is why don't Spain want that? What have they got to lose?

No in fact a majority of Catalans don't want independence but they're precisely the people who didn't vote yesterday because the referendum was illegal. (Turnout was about 42%),

One of the most common complaints by Catalans in favour of independence is they pay much more into the Spanish state than they get back.This is most certainly true as Cataluña is one of the richest areas in Spain,Rajoy could and should have offered the local Catalan goverment more power in terms of spending their tax revenue in Cataluña ( currently the local Catalan government mainly has autonomy for spending in education and health care etc).

The best piece on the current situation (that I've seen) comes from the LRB:-

"Short Cuts
Giles Tremlett
‘We don’t talk about politics here,’ Silvia told me when I visited the village of Espinavessa this summer. ‘We know where everybody stands, so there’s no point.’ We were sitting in the garden of the farmhouse she rents with five friends as a weekend refuge from Barcelona. She didn’t mean the politics of left and right. Her group of weekenders – now in their fifties and sixties – were all on the left. They came of age during the days of Spain’s transition to democracy in the 1970s and 1980s, when politics was a source of constant excitement. It was the issue of independence for Catalonia that they weren’t discussing. So what did they talk about? Mostly food, Silvia said, and visits to the doctor.

The Catalan government announced in June that what it claimed was a ‘binding referendum’ on independence would take place on 1 October. The Spanish constitutional court suspended the referendum and the result of any vote will be considered illegal. Neither side is backing down. As I write, the police are raiding Catalan government offices, confiscating voting cards and arresting separatist politicians. Anyone called up to oversee voting centres will be wondering whether it is illegal to do so, or illegal not to. The majority of those who do manage to find an open, functioning polling station on 1 October will support independence. The polls give those who want to remain Spanish a lead of 8 per cent, but most of them won’t vote. In the ensuing mess, all sides will claim victory, whether political, legal or moral. There may even be an attempt at a declaration of independence, though this would be more theatrical than real. The language used to describe events – ‘traitor’, ‘conquistador’, ‘coup d’état’ – has not displayed what Catalans like to think is one of their chief characteristics: seny, or ‘level-headedness’.

Silvia took me for a walk in the woods. A pot-bellied hare stood upright and stared at us before darting away. Someone had been chopping firewood, which sat in neat piles. Huge bales of hay lined the edge of a field of rust-red soil. Catalans live in a mostly urban, post-industrial society, but their heart lies – like England’s – in the countryside. Farmers here have a hard time making money from their land, some of which lies fallow. Silvia pointed out the long, low outline of the Mare de Déu del Mont hills. ‘That is where Verdaguer wrote Canigó,’ she said.

Romantic poets and writers were cheerleaders for and creators of 19th-century nationalism, in Catalonia as elsewhere. With his epic poem Canigó (1885), which narrates the mythical origins of Catalonia in battles between Christians and Moors in the 11th century, the priest-poet Jacint Verdaguer confirmed his status as the major figure of the Renaixença – a movement that wanted to see the use of Catalan, not Castilian Spanish, in literary works. Verdaguer was fêted by Barcelona’s bourgeoisie, who contributed economic muscle to the nascent nationalist movement. He ended up living in the Palau Moja, overlooking the Ramblas, as chaplain to the marquis of Comillas. There he slipped into madness: he became obsessed with the devil’s march through the city’s working class and conducted exorcisms.

Carles Puigdemont, the regional prime minister (president in Catalan), is the 130th man to run the Generalitat, the body which from the 14th century ran Catalonia under the watchful eye of Spain’s Aragonese or Castilian monarchs. It was suppressed by the invading Bourbons in 1714 and then resurrected by the Republicans in 1932. A pattern of antagonism towards conservatives in the rest of Spain was established when in 1934 the leaders of the Generalitat rebelled against the new right-wing government in Madrid and its president, Lluís Companys, declared Catalonia an independent state within a federal Spain (which didn’t exist). A state of war was declared, troops fired on the 16th-century palace that housed the Generalitat, and three people were killed. Companys was sent to prison and the Generalitat was suspended for two years. After the left took control in Madrid in 1936 Companys was reinstated, but the Civil War broke out soon afterwards and in 1939 he fled to Paris, where he was arrested by the Gestapo and sent home to face a firing squad.

The LRB Podcast
Some still blame Catalonia for provoking the coup that started the Civil War. The new, decentralised democracy that emerged after Franco’s death in 1975 revived the Generalitat and slowly devolved administrative (though not always legislative) powers. As a result, Puigdemont is responsible for health, education (schooling is now in Catalan), culture, the police, the courts and much more for 16 per cent of Spain’s population. Until recently that seemed to satisfy most Catalans, though like people in other wealthy areas many of them wanted their taxes to be spent in their home region rather than propping up poorer places like southern Andalusia. But Catalans are unhappy that Spain’s 17 semi-autonomous regions all have similar powers while the Basques (who keep their tax money) have managed to achieve special status. This concern with identity and recognition unites separatists, creating a coalition of conservatives, progressives and radical anti-capitalists with no common project beyond independence.

Blame for the recent surge in support for independence is often pinned on Spain’s prolonged economic crisis, which began with a burst housing bubble in 2008 and left a quarter of the population out of work. This certainly affected Catalans. Silvia’s career as a publisher of encyclopedias and art books came to an end. After working as a freelance saleswoman, she found an admin job in the court system. Although Catalan is her first language, her generation were taught at school in Castilian and it was only this year that she took her first exam in Catalan. The qualification gives her an advantage over other court employees, and may prove more useful than her law degree.

It wasn’t until 2010 that support for independence showed an increase, jumping to 50 per cent. At first this seemed like a blip; it had been thought that no more than a third of Catalans were in favour. In fact it was a sign of profound change, triggered by the constitutional court judgment that summer which struck out parts of the charter for regional autonomy endorsed at a proper referendum four years earlier. Turnout at that referendum had been low, but now the Catalans felt their views were being ignored. The court challenge had been lodged by the conservative People’s Party (PP), led by Mariano Rajoy. His party gains few votes in Catalonia, but wins many elsewhere by loudly opposing attempts to devolve more powers.

Rajoy is now prime minister, and widely regarded as the single biggest stirrer of separatist sentiment in Catalonia. He has failed to respond to appeals for a legal, state-approved referendum, even though more than 70 per cent of Catalans, including many ‘no’ voters, believe this is the best solution. His obstinacy contributed to the victory of the separatist bloc in the regional elections in September 2015, when it gained a slim parliamentary majority with just 48 per cent of the vote. That is a very fragile platform for radical change, but Rajoy has signally failed to take advantage of the fact that most Catalan voters don’t support independence.

The crucial question is what will happen after the referendum date. The Catalan referendum law suspended by the constitutional court states that a simple majority would be sufficient for a declaration of independence to be made within 48 hours. If that happens, it won’t be taken seriously outside Catalonia. Puigdemont and some of his government may be banned from public office and Madrid might take charge of the regional government. The inevitable outcome, then, will be a legal victory for Rajoy, while the separatists claim a moral one.

It’s hard to say what will happen after that. Support for independence could disappear, as Rajoy hopes. Separatists may embrace seny, and try to win more power gradually. But seny has a counterweight that Catalans call rauxa – an impulsive craziness. The worst scenario of all would see a generation of frustrated young separatists seeking a violent way forward.

22 September"
 
Not really he died in 1975-three years before I first came to Barna to work.I'd have to admit though that President Mariano Rajoy has been particularly insensitive (not to say stupid) in his handling of the crisis.

(Really poor internet connection today.Wonder if Madrid is trying to block Catalan independence that way). :winking:
in terms of state brutality what was happening yesterday was reminiscent of Franco's rule. And of course in the Spanish Civil War Catalonia took the brunt of his brutality. So it was a reminder of dark times in Spain.
 
in terms of state brutality what was happening yesterday was reminiscent of Franco's rule. And of course in the Spanish Civil War Catalonia took the brunt of his brutality. So it was a reminder of dark times in Spain.

The undercurrent of which has long continued I think. I can well remember, living in southern Spain in the 80s/90s, seeing Guardia Civil kicking the crap out of someone in full view of passers by. Franco may have died in 1975, but that didn't mean folk stopped being fascist bullies overnight.
 
money - Catalonia is one of the big wealth generators for Spain

Quite. Whereas with Scotland leaving the UK, many might say* "sod 'em, we might save a few quid", that certainly wouldn't be the case if Catalunya left Spain.



*Not me. I like Scotland and would be sorry if we split.
 
in terms of state brutality what was happening yesterday was reminiscent of Franco's rule. And of course in the Spanish Civil War Catalonia took the brunt of his brutality. So it was a reminder of dark times in Spain.

Yes and obviously it's something nobody likes to see.All I can say is that coming back from El Prat airport yesterday,well after 8 pm,things were pretty quiet in the centre except in Plaza Catalunya, where there were a lot of people watching the election coverage on a giant screen and a strong (but discrete police presence-ie a lot of cops in vans).That's all I saw personally.

There's no question however that local Catalan politicians have already won the propaganda war.Certainly judging by the pictures I saw on the BBC yesterday lunchtime down in Old Leigh.
 
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