Defensive Problems & Tatics

[Interpol Shrimper]

Quote[/b] (Hong Kong Blue @ Aug. 08 2005,13:27)]I have repeatedly commented on how we need a commanding 'keeper as otherwise the defence has to play too deep to cover the 'keeper's inadequacies.

Uh-oh, tin helmet on.....

 

[Hong Kong Blue]

Slightly alarmed by some of the suggested team changes.

Hunt and Barrett at centre-half - we'd get slaughtered in the air. You need a dominate centre-half to clear everything in the air.

Gower and Cole - would leave us too exposed defensively. We need a Pettefer or even a Guttridge scrapping away on one of the wings.

Drop Bentley - do you want us to be relegated?

 

[nnatt76]

sat here all morning looking at these posts.

You guys are funny.

Man i can smell the panic from here.

 

[Stats]

Quote[/b] (Kris @ Aug. 08 2005,13:22)]

Quote[/b] (statski77 @ Aug. 08 2005,13:04)]why is it everytime when duncan jupp is mentioned good going forward

yeah great but the main purpose of his game is to defend!!

hunt will be getting a run in the side now but not for the man he should be replacing

The trouble is, because we have consistently not played a naturally right-sided midfielder over the last season and a bit, we've relied on our right-back more or less constantly overlapping to give us width.

Now while I agree with you that Hunt is better than Jupp defensively, Jupp is a terrific athlete and covers the right flank superbly. Hunt is OK going forward but isn't as dynamic as Jupp, which is a worry if we're playing someone like Guttridge or Petts on the right, neither of whom give us much width.

I'd be more than happy to see Hunt at right-back but I do think we need someone who is naturally right-sided (i.e. Gower) in front of him to give the team better balance and relieve Hunt's burden going forward.

As it is, it looks like Hunt will be replacing Prior at centre back over the next month or so, which I have no problem with at all as he's more than assured in that position. In the meantime, I still have faith in Jupp to do a decent job at right-back. The clanger on Saturday was his first since he returned to the side (February?) and otherwise I thought he had a decent game.

fair point kris but last season jupp was playing against league 2 standard players and very few of those sides had decent wingers who run at defenders

This season we're playing against sides who like to play the ball on the deck and the majority of teams will have 1/2 decent wingers

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (Hong Kong Blue @ Aug. 08 2005,13:35)]Drop Bentley - do you want us to be relegated?

I agree with my fellow Shrimper from E3... you must be daft.

It's all well and good for Maher to come to the party in the second half once we're 2-0 down, but (and regardless of the flaming that ORM will doubtless hand out) I thought that he was utterly s**t in the first half. It was vintage bloody "Maher plays crap, Southend lose" stuff. I cannot think of a single good thing he did in the first half - it was all tippy tappy lateral b*ll*cks that did us no damn good at all.

In total contrast, Benno was one of only three players in the first half to emerge with any credit at all (the other two being Cole and Guttridge). He was, as usual, getting stuck in - you just have to take the booking as part of his game - and he posed a genuine penalty area threat. Our only threat, at times.

He might have been quieter in the second half, but that was probably only a result of the rest of the side waking up and Benno having played his heart out before half time.

As for the criticisms of Juppy - half of me thinks that he was beaten by a superb bit of skill by their winger, and the other half of me thinks that he was simply out-thought - and that he should have anticipated the winger being able to collect the ball and accordingly have defended the space against the cross, rather than challenging for the ball on the touchline.

Still, it doesn't really excuse Spinner and Barrett from giving Lowndes the freedom of the penalty area, nor does it excuse Flavs from failing to come for the ball at all in the first place.

Hey ho. At least we know we can play a lot better than that...

Matt

 

[N'Zamba Legend]

Some good points made above. I am actually more concerned about Barrett than Prior for this season. Barrett messes around too much at times (saturday was a prime example but you have to admit he got lucky with his barnstorming runs a few times last season) and I don't think you can afford to leave yourself so exposed against better opposition. Barrett played at this level a few years ago but ended up getting relegated with Mansfield (I think). I really hope he just concentrates on defending and has a fantastic season this time around- he is such an important player for us.

 

[* ORM *]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ Aug. 08 2005,14:58)]It's all well and good for Maher to come to the party in the second half once we're 2-0 down, but (and regardless of the flaming that ORM will doubtless hand out) I thought that he was utterly s**t in the first half.  It was vintage bloody "Maher plays crap, Southend lose" stuff.  I cannot think of a single good thing he did in the first half - it was all tippy tappy lateral b*ll*cks that did us no damn good at all.

In total contrast, Benno was one of only three players in the first half to emerge with any credit at all (the other two being Cole and Guttridge).  He was, as usual, getting stuck in - you just have to take the booking as part of his game - and he posed a genuine penalty area threat.  Our only threat, at times.

Of all the people to comment in the negative on Maher's performance on Saturday you were the last suspect on my list. An unspectacular but efficient first half and nothing better than that but polished off with an immense second half yet again killing off the 'can only pass sideways' tag.

I'm afraid the problem with Maher's first half performance was not of Maher's doing. Bentley looked great going forwards in the first half and may well have proved a threat on a couple of occassions, showing nicely for set pieces and throw-ins. However if you're going to play that role succesfully you need an engine. Bentley usually has it but on Saturday it was noticeably lacking. He shirked ALL defensive midfield responsiblities throughout the match which not only caused Maher to have a quiet first half but caused Gutteridge to have to come inside continually to do a job.

On Saturday's performance having Gutteridge alongside Maher with Petts out wide right looks a viable option.

At least we know that he can perform better than that. The more worrying thing for me was the ineptness shown in the first half by four defenders that have played together week in week out. I have my doubts as to whether more than two of those can rise to the new standard. Of the four Prior is in the best position. No doubt Barrett will have learnt lessons and will improve. Trying to be clever may look good at Mickey Mouse level cost us the first goal and almost cost us dearly in the second half.

 

[overseas shrimper]

Quote[/b] (* ORM * @ Aug. 08 2005,16:20)]Of all the people to comment in the negative on Maher's performance on Saturday you were the last suspect on my list.

Surely that just adds credibility the MtS' views on the subject.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (* ORM * @ Aug. 08 2005,15:20)]Of all the people to comment in the negative on Maher's performance on Saturday you were the last suspect on my list. An unspectacular but efficient first half and nothing better than that but polished off with an immense second half yet again killing off the 'can only pass sideways' tag.

I'm afraid the problem with Maher's first half performance was not of Maher's doing. Bentley looked great going forwards in the first half and may well have proved a threat on a couple of occassions, showing nicely for set pieces and throw-ins. However if you're going to play that role succesfully you need an engine. Bentley usually has it but on Saturday it was noticeably lacking. He shirked ALL defensive midfield responsiblities throughout the match which not only caused Maher to have a quiet first half but caused Gutteridge to have to come inside continually to do a job.

It's a good try, Tone... you've almost got me convinced. Ulimtately, however, as senior pro and as captain, if he felt that Benno should have been putting in more spadework elsewhere, then he should have ordered his junior colleague where to play.

The fact is that Maher simply didn't come to the party in the first half. It was the strolling strut of a man who had lifted a trophy only 9 weeks previously.

I cannot think of a single decent piece of work that Maher did in the first half. If he was "bearing the defensive midfield burden" - i.e. being the bridge between our defence and our creative midfielders - how was it that Adam Barrett ended up going on a couple of madcap runs with the ball - leaving himself out of position? Again, why (as captain) was Maher not leading from the front, spelling out a few home truths to the junior members of the squad (all bar Spinner), and leading for a change?

Indeed, why did Benno feel it necessary to raid forward during the first half? Could it have been that since his captain, the supposed fulcrum of the side, was failing to produce, that Benno resorted to the only thing he knows: hurtling into the area, snapping at heels (and picking up yellows)?

Fact is that sometimes, Maher plays like a bucket of manure. The first half on Saturday was one such occasion.

Second half, granted, he was back to his normal job - creating, directing, controlling. It's just a shame that he only decided to do that for the second 45-minute period, after we had already conceded twice.

Sometimes, Cap'n Kev needs a very large boot up the @rse. He is no longer the put-upon talent, the misunderstood genius. He is our captain, and he should bloody well show some leadership - both in terms of his own play, and in terms of ensuring that everyone around him does their job.

It's a shame that he waited until the second half to do so on Saturday, by which time it turned out to be too late.

Here's hoping he bucks his ideas up tomorrow.

Matt

 

[canveyshrimper]

I think that we have the foundations to build on, but the squad is just too small. It is way to early to criticise, more so in view of the fact that it was a big anti climax after all the expectation in the build up to the opening game.

Having watched the review programme on Sky yesterday, and seen the goal did anyone else notice that Freddy did not celebrate the goal??

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (canveyshrimper @ Aug. 08 2005,15:35)]Having watched the review programme on Sky yesterday, and seen the goal did anyone else notice that Freddy did not celebrate the goal??

Probably because he desperately wanted one himself but that he knew that it simply wasn't working for him.

Unfortunately, one other thing that I noticed on Saturday is that Freddy is now a marked man. He had two men on him straight away pretty much every time he got the ball. It was a successful tactic - I can't remember a single genuine chance that Freddy had all afternoon.

It's why I think that players like Jay Smith and the Goat will be crucial this season - clever players who can exploit the gaps left by sides who decide to double-team Freddy.

It'll be a tough season for the lad, though - of that there can surely be little doubt.

 

[canveyshrimper]

You are right Matt,

It was happening a lot towards the end of last season, what we have to do is be more clever and exploit the gaps that the two men on Freddy cause.

Jay Smith is very clever at this and with Goater there teams will be doubly wary because of his scoring record.

It looks probable that The Goat should or could be unleashed on Huddersfield.

 

[Hong Kong Blue]

Maher's been strolling through games for 9 seasons now.

I don't think his performance was much worse or much better than most of his displays last season. The difference is last season Bentley carried him (and the rest of the team). On Saturday Bentley never really got going and as a result the team never really got going.

I don't think by most player's standards Bentley had a bad game, but by his box to box standards, he wasn't at the races and we suffered as a result. Dropping Bentley isn't going to get an improvement as no-one else in the squad can play his role. Dropping Bentley will only lead to relegation.

 

[* ORM *]

Quote[/b] (Hong Kong Blue @ Aug. 08 2005,16:45)]Maher's been strolling through games for 9 seasons now.

I don't think his performance was much worse or much better than most of his displays last season. The difference is last season Bentley carried him (and the rest of the team). On Saturday Bentley never really got going and as a result the team never really got going.

I don't think by most player's standards Bentley had a bad game, but by his box to box standards, he wasn't at the races and we suffered as a result. Dropping Bentley isn't going to get an improvement as no-one else in the squad can play his role. Dropping Bentley will only lead to relegation.

I know you're going to tell me I've fallen hook, line and sinker for the rather large and obvious bait.

However........................

Mts has persuasive and constructive arguments which I'll agree to disagree on. I try not to spend my whole life defending the legend but your comments take the biscuit and cannot go uncountered. How many Managers (and Chairmen)is all I'll say on the subject ?

I do seem to spend a third of my time on here sorting out SZFC, a third defending Maher and a third being a child and pain in the arse. I must get a life.

 

[BoyWonder2]

Blimey one loss and its all "lets make changes", jeez you'd have thought we'd never have suffered a defeat before. Granted it is disappointing to start life in League One with a defeat but, in my opinion, their were more positives than negatives to come out of the game.

For the first half hour, no one can take any credit at all. We were awful all other the pitch. The back four transformed for solid to sloppy, the midfield changed from fantastic to fraile and the two up top didn't get the service required and were well marshalled. Once the second went in, strangly, everyone knew their jobs again, we started to go back to the way we played last season. We played with the commitment, work effort and passion again and created a string of chances, most of which came in the second half. Tilson made some good subsitutions replacing Guttridge, who showed me exactly what I've been saying on here, good player but can't play out wide, with Gower who showed glimpses of the class that made us offer him an extension to his contract and win player of the year. Hunt replaced an injured Spinner, pretty much a like for like change at the back. Lawson replaced the tired looking Mitchell Cole.

 

[Hong Kong Blue]

Quote[/b] (* ORM * @ Aug. 08 2005,17:01)]

Quote[/b] (Hong Kong Blue @ Aug. 08 2005,16:45)]Maher's been strolling through games for 9 seasons now.

I don't think his performance was much worse or much better than most of his displays last season. The difference is last season Bentley carried him (and the rest of the team). On Saturday Bentley never really got going and as a result the team never really got going.

I don't think by most player's standards Bentley had a bad game, but by his box to box standards, he wasn't at the races and we suffered as a result. Dropping Bentley isn't going to get an improvement as no-one else in the squad can play his role. Dropping Bentley will only lead to relegation.

I know you're going to tell me I've fallen hook, line and sinker for the rather large and obvious bait.

However........................

Mts has persuasive and constructive arguments which I'll agree to disagree on. I try not to spend my whole life defending the legend but your comments take the biscuit and cannot go uncountered. How many Managers (and Chairmen)is all I'll say on the subject ?

I do seem to spend a third of my time on here sorting out SZFC, a third defending Maher and a third being a child and pain in the arse. I must get a life.  

ORM, that was actually an attempt at a defence of Maher!

I think a gave him a rating of 7 and nobody got higher.

It is an infuriating fact that Maher spends most of his time strolling around but that isn't to say he isn't effective. Mike Marsh and Ronnie Whelan were two others who strolled about. True, I think he would be more effective if he put in half as much effort as Benno normally does, but that doesn't mean I think he is ineffective.

What Maher is good at (maintaining possession, offering the easy ball, and spraying square balls to the wings) he's very good at. But a midfield needs someone to do the running, to put in crunching tackles, to close players down, to offer a physical side, someone to drive the team forward. Without that we will get relegated. Bentley does all those and more and does it to such an extent that Maher's inability to do all this was covered over last season.

Unlike MtS I'm not blaming Maher for defeat, I'm saying that the reason we lost the midfield battle was because for once Bentley wasn't superhuman.

 

[Perth Bambi]

I think the simple fact is that Maher just doesn't have the stamina to run around non stop for the whole 90 minutes like Bents does.
It doesn't matter how hard he trains or how much grit and determination he puts in on the pitch he will never be able to keep going like that.
So instead he strolls around trying to dictate the play and slow things down a bit rather then the normal panicing, trying to play balls that are never going to get to the target or hoofing the ball over the top.

 

[sufcintheprem]

I'd say the main difference is that Bentley gets forward so much more quickly than Kev. Maher doesn't shy away from tackles, neither does he shy away from defensive tracking. It's just that he tends to play in front of their midfield whereas Bentley loves to get in behind.

 

[wiggy]

We must get Jay Smith back in the team. He is classy and an attacking playmaker whom when he was fit stood out a mile. As much as i respect Mahers play he is still too negative for my liking and as for Gutts, still havent seen anything to excite me.

 

[Guest]

Agreed, wiggy. When Jay Smith is fit he's arguably our best midfielder and I think he could do really well in this division. Trouble is, with Maher as captain and Beno needed for his presence and the ability to break up opposition play in the midfield area, I don't see how we can fit Jay in where he's best, ie central midfield