Do we think we are really doing enough to best develop our younger players?

[Beefy]

No one will give Phil Brown, or anyone for that matter, any credit for playing the youngsters if we're not winning games. That's a fact (you only have to look at some of the ridiculous criticism thrown Roy Hodgson's way to see that).

He is paid to win games and to get this Club promoted and needs to pick the best players, in his opinion, to do that.

People say "give them a chance" or "he can't do any worse" but really that is one massive pile of bollocks.

 

[Jam_Man]

Indeed.

"They cant do any worse" is absurd and completely wrong, of course they could do worse.

Brown cant just give other players just in the hope theyare better he would be a terrible manager. He should be judging players and playing them when they are ready, like he did with Payne who has had to earn the right to get in the side.

Just playing other youngsters purely because Payne has now broken through makes no sense whatsoever. He has shown he is ready, when the others do the same (which I havent seen any evidence they have) and Brown feels they will improve the side they will get their chance.

Its his job and his career, he isnt going to hold them from the side out of spite, he wants to win games just as much as we do.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

Alex Woodyard, Harry Crawford, Johnny Herd etc etc were all well short of the necessary standard. They may have tried but they were holes in our side.

I do however think Brown has been reluctant to give the kids a chance. Saturday was Payne's first start and Bentley basically got in the team because Smith was injured, having been dropped for Wembley when Brown first came in.

Yep that game he played against Chelsea and that long throw that set up our goal really showed Herd falling short!

 

[Jam_Man]

Yep that game he played against Chelsea and that long throw that set up our goal really showed Herd falling short!

Yet he didnt do a lot else and never got a club elsewhere, same as Woodyard and Crawford.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

Yet he didnt do a lot else and never got a club elsewhere, same as Woodyard and Crawford.

Yeah I know. Woodyard and Crawford were woeful but Herd played quite a bit. Felt a bit sorry for Herd really but you are right, not good enough long term

 

[Jam_Man]

Yeah I know. Woodyard and Crawford were woeful but Herd played quite a bit. Felt a bit sorry for Herd really but you are right, not good enough long term

Thing is we want our homegrown players to do well, but the management see them and are the experts on their development.

Its frustrating to see so many released, but other than a couple of notable exceptions all the ones we release end up in non-league, so generally the coaching staff get it right. Just look at Sawyer, people were saying it was a mistake and he would tear up non-league and bounce right back, he has dropped even lower since.

 

[Feathers]

Yep that game he played against Chelsea and that long throw that set up our goal really showed Herd falling short!

I also recall Sankofa pulling of an excellent tackle in the same game (against Drogba?). Perhaps we should swap them for White and Coker :winking:

 

[Danshrimper]

Play them !

Jack has been a revelation so why not the other untried forwards who may do exactly the same thing.

Coulthirst from the 2 games I have seen does not do a lot and if he stays all season he ain't scoring many,His body language look's as though he doesn't give a damn.

How do you know Coulthirst is so bad if you've only seen him play twice?

 

[Drobbo]

Jack Payne made 11 league appearances from the bench last season plus 4 cup games. All aged 18 or 19.

This season he has been excellent, particularly against Oxford. The key is though is that he has been eased into the team. He can hardly be described as a revelation either as many people, including Brown, have talked about his potential.

Coulthirst is a similar age but because he has failed to score in his first few games he being written off as useless and lazy. Unlike Layne, Brown and Williams he has though proved he can score at this level (albeit not for us). By your own admission you have only seen him twice but have already written him off.

I have no problem with introducing Layne, Brown, or Williams if they are good enough but it would be very poor management just to play them and hope.

How many games do you think it would take for them to be written off if they did not score straight away?

Having 'only just scraped' a pro deal last year, Jack was given his first chance in a cup game last year, and proved the right decision had been made. This year in the first cup game, none of the first year pro's were played...and we went out. Second cup game came along..and it was used a 'moral builder' ...again none of the youngsters were played...and we went out. This would have been an ideal time to try a couple and see if they can play 'the mans game'. Now we are out of two cups, we are not doing as well as expected and as such the chances of them playing becomes even more remote. What do they have to do to be given a chance? Not looking for a baptism of fire, but all that is going to happen is ...as someone has posted they will be released at the end of the year, without so much as a look in.

You can have a player that plays fantastic youth/development football and is abysmal when they get into the first team, so having them play development games doesn't really prepare them for first team...only first team can. I think introducing one or two of them as subs would be a start, 20 minutes here or there, instead of the same old tired looking players. If they look as though they can't handle it, then back to development squad, if they look as though they can...more minutes.

On a slightly different note, maybe if we hadn't devoted most of the pre-season matches to trialling players who were not going to sign/be signed - more time could have been given to see how they fared against men.

 

[Barry.C]

Having 'only just scraped' a pro deal last year, Jack was given his first chance in a cup game last year, and proved the right decision had been made. This year in the first cup game, none of the first year pro's were played...and we went out. Second cup game came along..and it was used a 'moral builder' ...again none of the youngsters were played...and we went out. This would have been an ideal time to try a couple and see if they can play 'the mans game'. Now we are out of two cups, we are not doing as well as expected and as such the chances of them playing becomes even more remote. What do they have to do to be given a chance? Not looking for a baptism of fire, but all that is going to happen is ...as someone has posted they will be released at the end of the year, without so much as a look in.

You can have a player that plays fantastic youth/development football and is abysmal when they get into the first team, so having them play development games doesn't really prepare them for first team...only first team can. I think introducing one or two of them as subs would be a start, 20 minutes here or there, instead of the same old tired looking players. If they look as though they can't handle it, then back to development squad, if they look as though they can...more minutes.

On a slightly different note, maybe if we hadn't devoted most of the pre-season matches to trialling players who were not going to sign/be signed - more time could have been given to see how they fared against men.

Yes well said. lots of opportunities missed perhaps. Just in the interests of balance, I note as Jam said Williams played very well today in the trial against Dagenham. He has also scored in the last 2 reserve games against men. I am not specifically promoting him but do wonder whether even the opportunity to sit on the bench can give optimism and experience. Also how come other clubs dont have a problem with sending out their youngsters on loan to the lower leagues for experience. I get the impression we have dropped away from this option . Surely 3 months in the Conference or spells with different Conference teams would be a good learning experience, especially given ever increasing limited opportunities as reserve and youth football drops away?

 

[mrsblue]

Having 'only just scraped' a pro deal last year, Jack was given his first chance in a cup game last year, and proved the right decision had been made. This year in the first cup game, none of the first year pro's were played...and we went out. Second cup game came along..and it was used a 'moral builder' ...again none of the youngsters were played...and we went out. This would have been an ideal time to try a couple and see if they can play 'the mans game'. Now we are out of two cups, we are not doing as well as expected and as such the chances of them playing becomes even more remote. What do they have to do to be given a chance? Not looking for a baptism of fire, but all that is going to happen is ...as someone has posted they will be released at the end of the year, without so much as a look in.

You can have a player that plays fantastic youth/development football and is abysmal when they get into the first team, so having them play development games doesn't really prepare them for first team...only first team can. I think introducing one or two of them as subs would be a start, 20 minutes here or there, instead of the same old tired looking players. If they look as though they can't handle it, then back to development squad, if they look as though they can...more minutes.

On a slightly different note, maybe if we hadn't devoted most of the pre-season matches to trialling players who were not going to sign/be signed - more time could have been given to see how they fared against men.

This is 100% accurate!

Why indeed not play them in friendly games!

 

[buffalowolf]

I understand peoples frustration at them not playing in the trial games , but PB plays the trialists because he needs to look at them before deciding on whether or not they are the type he wants to sign,bit hard for him to sign players sight unseen.But yes i agree that some of the young lads hopefully will be given 15 to 20 minutes here and there to see if they can cut it as 1st teamers.

 

[ooh-andy-ansah]

This is 100% accurate!

Why indeed not play them in friendly games!

I think you grossly under estimate the pressure PB is under to get results. He has to make a judgement call on how to get us into a decent league position quickly, he does not have the luxury of developing a team over the next 2-3 years. Ask any manager what they would do in his position.

Better still write to RM and ask him if PB was to throw a few youngsters in and we finish in the bottom half this year, improve a bit the following year and maybe get promotion in year 3 if he would support that policy. What do you think the answer would be ?

 

[danburyshrimper]

Alex Woodyard, Harry Crawford, Johnny Herd etc etc were all well short of the necessary standard. They may have tried but they were holes in our side.

I do however think Brown has been reluctant to give the kids a chance. Saturday was Payne's first start and Bentley basically got in the team because Smith was injured, having been dropped for Wembley when Brown first came in.

You could argue these players "failed" but i would say they just didnt get enough chances to improve , gain confidence + learn to become pro's .In any career you learn best by doing the job by being thrown in the deep end. You cant tell me Woodyard is any worse than say Deegan or Herd was worse than Straker for example. Crawford has a decent scoring level wherever he played ( + his record for Blues reserves was excellent ). Crawford probably got half a dozen games of around 10 minutes + was written off + released .... look how many minutes we ve given Barny , Coolhirst,Corr + Weston yet are they any better? Debatable. ...Crawford was 100% committed,would run thru brick walls for this club + earnt a tiny fraction of our so called star strikers of this season.

I say most players are much of a muchness , with CONFIDENCE being the vital ingredient that makes the difference between a so called "good player" or a "useless player" ( to quote most shrimperzoners) . Take Gavin Tomlin as an example. The fella looked damn rubbish for around 10 games , like he was a fish out of water. But the manager stuck with him , gave him the confidence + BANG! 1st goal -- then he was possibly our most dangerous striker of the last 7 seasons .

My point ( and i'm getting there !!! ) is that for a club like ours that is losing a million or so a year , why ignore the rich potential youthful talent at our disposal that we have invested in , instead of paying up for so many less hungry pricey players in such a huge squad? We need to Give Youth a chance + in the process balance the books of our club .... We all look in envy at what Crewe have achieved year after year yet we ignore their basic principle.

 

[chapperzUK]

I've noticed that Jack Bridge has 4 goals in the development squad so far this season, maybe we should just chuck him in ...

 

[ooh-andy-ansah]

You could argue these players "failed" but i would say they just didnt get enough chances to improve , gain confidence + learn to become pro's .In any career you learn best by doing the job by being thrown in the deep end. You cant tell me Woodyard is any worse than say Deegan or Herd was worse than Straker for example. Crawford has a decent scoring level wherever he played ( + his record for Blues reserves was excellent ). Crawford probably got half a dozen games of around 10 minutes + was written off + released .... look how many minutes we ve given Barny , Coolhirst,Corr + Weston yet are they any better? Debatable. ...Crawford was 100% committed,would run thru brick walls for this club + earnt a tiny fraction of our so called star strikers of this season.

I say most players are much of a muchness , with CONFIDENCE being the vital ingredient that makes the difference between a so called "good player" or a "useless player" ( to quote most shrimperzoners) . Take Gavin Tomlin as an example. The fella looked damn rubbish for around 10 games , like he was a fish out of water. But the manager stuck with him , gave him the confidence + BANG! 1st goal -- then he was possibly our most dangerous striker of the last 7 seasons .

My point ( and i'm getting there !!! ) is that for a club like ours that is losing a million or so a year , why ignore the rich potential youthful talent at our disposal that we have invested in , instead of paying up for so many less hungry pricey players in such a huge squad? We need to Give Youth a chance + in the process balance the books of our club .... We all look in envy at what Crewe have achieved year after year yet we ignore their basic principle.

I never understood the Herd bashing, he was also playing for us at a higher level than we are now at, he did really well against Chelsea too. I feel his biggest problem was confidence, people will no doubt say "look where he is now", well again confidence could be a big factor in that. The lad was a good honest pro that always gave 100%, unspectacular but decent imo. Sometimes as fans it's easy to forget the players have personalties that are as diverse as the rest of the population. As a professional sports coach I have seen huge advances in sports psychology in recent years but lower league football clubs are still way behind the curve. I happen to think PB is a people person so probably relies on himself to do the psychological side of things due to limited funds.

 

[Barry.C]

I wonder how much PB listens to the advice of Coughlan running the Reserves and development squad? He has just said this " Jason Williams put in a great shift" "We are very good going forward" "Jason was outstanding, held the ball up well, brought others into play, ran at the defence and looked a constant danger, hes coming on well"
At this rate Williams will be allowed to wash one of Shaqs boots in about 6 months time?

 

[chapperzUK]

We all look in envy at what Crewe have achieved year after year yet we ignore their basic principle.

Crewe is a perfect example of how to bring youth through into the first team, yet they are required to sell these players to help fund the academy and also bring in players from outside the youths. They also had 5 loanees last season too.

So let's look at this system they use.

Nick Powell, now playing in the Premier league with Leicester on loan from Man U. In his 1st season in the Crewe first team, he managed 18 appearances clocking up a total of 260 minutes on the pitch - average of under 15 minutes per appearance. In the 2nd season he was a regular fixture in the side, 3,479 minutes played in 44 appearances - average of under 80 minutes per appearance.

Ashley Westwood, now playing in the Premier league with Aston Villa. In his 1st season in the Crewe first team, he managed 2 sub appearances accumulating a total 24 minutes. Only 2 more sub appearances in the first 7 games of the next season before being given a start which was followed by being an unused sub in the next game until he made his break through and finished the season with 38 appearances totalling 3,137 minutes on the pitch.

Max Clayton, out of contract at the moment but, due to his age, Crewe are out pricing him of a move with Bolton unwilling to pay that. Played a England u16, u17, u18 and u19 level. In his first 2 seasons at Crewe, he only managed 1 start with 29 appearances from the bench. The 3rd season was his break through, with 27 starts and 15 appearances from the bench. Last season was a disappointment with a Malleolar fracture forcing him to miss 28 games, but he still started 14 games with only 4 sub appearances. A total of 90 appearances over 4 seasons, with a total of 15 goals - 1 every 6 games.

What can we learn from this? The first 1 or 2 seasons should be helping the youth player embed them into the first team - using them as a sub for 10-20 minutes at the end of a game to settle them into the team with a couple of starts in cup matches. Then, if the player is ready for regular action, give them a few starts at the start of the next season to see how they do and how well they are settled into the team. So let's compare that to our players.

Compare those midfielders to our Jack Payne, who played 399 minutes last season over 15 appearances - average of 26.6 minutes per appearance. He has played more than Powell and Westwood combined in their 1st season. With 4 appearances so far this season clocking up 240 minutes - average of 60 minutes per appearance - with more first team starts looking likely, then we can expect to see him make up a similar amount of game time that Powell and Westwood had.

Another one to look for is Jack Bridge, doing very well in the development squad it seems and as the season progresses if he is still doing well it would be a good idea to give him a bit of a run out from the bench. Although, according to Coughlan he does play in the same position as Payne and we already have several good midfielders.

Looking at our youth strikers, Williams, Brown and Layne, this is arguably their first season. I know that Williams played last season, but 9 minutes over 2 sub appearances isn't enough "bedding in" for this season to be his break through season IMO. Therefore, this season would be their settling in season with some sub appearances from them between now and then end of the season and if they do well then maybe a few starts.

In conclusion, going back to something I didn't quote from your post, "throwing them in the deep end" is not the best way someone will learn. It doesn't happen anywhere in life, you don't give someone more than they can handle otherwise they will fail. Sometimes there are exceptions to this, but that is very rare. Even Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi were being eased into their teams as 18 year olds.

Also worth mentioning that Francis Laurent was banging them in for the reserves in his first season with the club and his first appearance, as a sub, came on 18th October - scoring a header. After 2 more sub appearances and a further goal - he was given a start against Leeds. This wasn't a "kid" either, this was a 22 year old with previous professional first team experience.

 

[Ricky Otto]

Crewe is a perfect example of how to bring youth through into the first team, yet they are required to sell these players to help fund the academy and also bring in players from outside the youths. They also had 5 loanees last season too.

So let's look at this system they use.

Nick Powell, now playing in the Premier league with Leicester on loan from Man U. In his 1st season in the Crewe first team, he managed 18 appearances clocking up a total of 260 minutes on the pitch - average of under 15 minutes per appearance. In the 2nd season he was a regular fixture in the side, 3,479 minutes played in 44 appearances - average of under 80 minutes per appearance.

Ashley Westwood, now playing in the Premier league with Aston Villa. In his 1st season in the Crewe first team, he managed 2 sub appearances accumulating a total 24 minutes. Only 2 more sub appearances in the first 7 games of the next season before being given a start which was followed by being an unused sub in the next game until he made his break through and finished the season with 38 appearances totalling 3,137 minutes on the pitch.

Max Clayton, out of contract at the moment but, due to his age, Crewe are out pricing him of a move with Bolton unwilling to pay that. Played a England u16, u17, u18 and u19 level. In his first 2 seasons at Crewe, he only managed 1 start with 29 appearances from the bench. The 3rd season was his break through, with 27 starts and 15 appearances from the bench. Last season was a disappointment with a Malleolar fracture forcing him to miss 28 games, but he still started 14 games with only 4 sub appearances. A total of 90 appearances over 4 seasons, with a total of 15 goals - 1 every 6 games.

What can we learn from this? The first 1 or 2 seasons should be helping the youth player embed them into the first team - using them as a sub for 10-20 minutes at the end of a game to settle them into the team with a couple of starts in cup matches. Then, if the player is ready for regular action, give them a few starts at the start of the next season to see how they do and how well they are settled into the team. So let's compare that to our players.

Compare those midfielders to our Jack Payne, who played 399 minutes last season over 15 appearances - average of 26.6 minutes per appearance. He has played more than Powell and Westwood combined in their 1st season. With 4 appearances so far this season clocking up 240 minutes - average of 60 minutes per appearance - with more first team starts looking likely, then we can expect to see him make up a similar amount of game time that Powell and Westwood had.

Another one to look for is Jack Bridge, doing very well in the development squad it seems and as the season progresses if he is still doing well it would be a good idea to give him a bit of a run out from the bench. Although, according to Coughlan he does play in the same position as Payne and we already have several good midfielders.

Looking at our youth strikers, Williams, Brown and Layne, this is arguably their first season. I know that Williams played last season, but 9 minutes over 2 sub appearances isn't enough "bedding in" for this season to be his break through season IMO. Therefore, this season would be their settling in season with some sub appearances from them between now and then end of the season and if they do well then maybe a few starts.

In conclusion, going back to something I didn't quote from your post, "throwing them in the deep end" is not the best way someone will learn. It doesn't happen anywhere in life, you don't give someone more than they can handle otherwise they will fail. Sometimes there are exceptions to this, but that is very rare. Even Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi were being eased into their teams as 18 year olds.

Also worth mentioning that Francis Laurent was banging them in for the reserves in his first season with the club and his first appearance, as a sub, came on 18th October - scoring a header. After 2 more sub appearances and a further goal - he was given a start against Leeds. This wasn't a "kid" either, this was a 22 year old with previous professional first team experience.

Very intertesting post, Crewe always get touted as the benchmark and we don't seem to be doing things much differently.

 

[chapperzUK]

Very intertesting post, Crewe always get touted as the benchmark and we don't seem to be doing things much differently.

Without doing lots of research, a couple of differences are that Crewe started theirs when Dario Gradi took over in the 80s, so have a 15-20 year head start on us. They are also a category 2 club, meaning they have better facilities, can spend more time with their players and aren't going to lose players to as many clubs as we are.

They have to raise around £500k a season from player sales to fund this though. With this they are forced to sell whoever comes through that is very good and only have them for 2-3 seasons at best. With that, they are currently bottom of League 1 without a single point.