If we don't become involved now then when do we?

[Rusty Shackleford]

Shock and awe didnt work last last time round did it. Its a simplistic solution to a complex problem and ultimately ineffective, the middle east is a social construct built on compromise and brokered by european powers and holds no comparison with Nazi Germany, that situation was far more straight forward. If a few bombs and bullets would solve the problem I would have little moral objection if it were for the greater good, however, the problem is here to stay until talks take place or the money runs out or the oil or the will or the amunition or indeed the people to kill. The creation of a waste land creates yet another vacuum for extremists to thrive.

So it's straight forward to destroy a genocidal economic superpower with the manpower to conquer an entire continent but it's desperately complex to start taking on a bunch of goat herders and East London bhangra boppers? If we agree that ISIS or ISIL or IS or Isla St Clair needs to have its arse kicked, then let's just get on with it. Eliminate them and their supporters. Bush talked about shock and awe but that was a few bunker busters and limited boots on the ground. You really think these jumped up ab dabs could deal with a full scale assault from a professional Western Army? If that upsets 'people' in the Middle East and in Bradford then too ****ing bad. These scumsuckers need to be eviscerated, we don't need to discuss the nuances.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

As much as I loathe the rag, good to see The Sun getting involved in denouncing ISIS and not falling into blatant Islamophobia.

Wrong.According to this article anyway.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/08/sun-unite-against-isis-muslim-bigotry

Personally, I tend to side with Dennis Skinner -and he's never voted for any war since he's been in Parliament, (ie since 1970 in his case).

 

[londonblue]

So it's straight forward to destroy a genocidal economic superpower with the manpower to conquer an entire continent but it's desperately complex to start taking on a bunch of goat herders and East London bhangra boppers? If we agree that ISIS or ISIL or IS or Isla St Clair needs to have its arse kicked, then let's just get on with it. Eliminate them and their supporters. Bush talked about shock and awe but that was a few bunker busters and limited boots on the ground. You really think these jumped up ab dabs could deal with a full scale assault from a professional Western Army? If that upsets 'people' in the Middle East and in Bradford then too ****ing bad. These scumsuckers need to be eviscerated, we don't need to discuss the nuances.

You leave Isla St. Clair out of this.

 

[Jam_Man]

So it's straight forward to destroy a genocidal economic superpower with the manpower to conquer an entire continent but it's desperately complex to start taking on a bunch of goat herders and East London bhangra boppers? If we agree that ISIS or ISIL or IS or Isla St Clair needs to have its arse kicked, then let's just get on with it. Eliminate them and their supporters. Bush talked about shock and awe but that was a few bunker busters and limited boots on the ground. You really think these jumped up ab dabs could deal with a full scale assault from a professional Western Army? If that upsets 'people' in the Middle East and in Bradford then too ****ing bad. These scumsuckers need to be eviscerated, we don't need to discuss the nuances.

No they couldnt so would run to the hills and resort to IED's and suicide bombers and we would be stuck there another decade.

You can defeat an enemy like Germany because its a country with an army, trying to defeat a belief system is something else.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

No they couldnt so would run to the hills and resort to IED's and suicide bombers and we would be stuck there another decade.

You can defeat an enemy like Germany because its a country with an army, trying to defeat a belief system is something else.

Nazism was a belief system, with many features in common with Radical Islamism. We didn't worry about alienating future Nazis. If they had fought on, they would have been the first recipients of Little Boy and Fatman, rather than the Japs.

 

[steveo]

Nigel Kennedy's dead? Such a shame, always liked his violin playing.

Never liked the bloke. Always on the fiddle.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

No they couldnt so would run to the hills and resort to IED's and suicide bombers and we would be stuck there another decade.

You can defeat an enemy like Germany because its a country with an army, trying to defeat a belief system is something else.

Didn't Nazi Germany have a belief in racial superiority, elimination of non aligned races, religions, sexualities, mental/ Physical persons, gypsies etc. And didn't other Facist parties follow the same doctrine?
Huge swathes of German and Axis society gave tacit or real approval of Hitlers henchmen and their actions.
The war on them and the belief had rules on the Allied side, most of the time, but "the gloves were off" and the armies of good got on with it with universal support AND destroyed the baddies.
Since then the Western powers have been pussy footing about; even Iraq was not full, all out, no holds bar stuff.
We are fighting these *******s, servicemen (and women) will lose the lives and limbs and they need to be supported and allowed to use all and every means to kill and destroy all those ISIL and their support base.

 

[Crabby Shrimper]

Didn't Nazi Germany have a belief in racial superiority, elimination of non aligned races, religions, sexualities, mental/ Physical persons, gypsies etc. And didn't other Facist parties follow the same doctrine?
Huge swathes of German and Axis society gave tacit or real approval of Hitlers henchmen and their actions.
The war on them and the belief had rules on the Allied side, most of the time, but "the gloves were off" and the armies of good got on with it with universal support AND destroyed the baddies.
Since then the Western powers have been pussy footing about; even Iraq was not full, all out, no holds bar stuff.
We are fighting these *******s, servicemen (and women) will lose the lives and limbs and they need to be supported and allowed to use all and every means to kill and destroy all those ISIL and their support base.

This. WW2 was treated as a fight for survival. This is more like a fight for the last scone at tea!

 

[mrsblue]

Didn't Nazi Germany have a belief in racial superiority, elimination of non aligned races, religions, sexualities, mental/ Physical persons, gypsies etc. And didn't other Facist parties follow the same doctrine?
Huge swathes of German and Axis society gave tacit or real approval of Hitlers henchmen and their actions.
The war on them and the belief had rules on the Allied side, most of the time, but "the gloves were off" and the armies of good got on with it with universal support AND destroyed the baddies.
Since then the Western powers have been pussy footing about; even Iraq was not full, all out, no holds bar stuff.
We are fighting these *******s, servicemen (and women) will lose the lives and limbs and they need to be supported and allowed to use all and every means to kill and destroy all those ISIL and their support base.

How many Muslims living just in this country 2 million ?!,just a handful of crazies brought death carnage and destruction on the London streets so if the West did what you suggest it will be a bloodbath everywhere as fanatics will target stadiums ,shopping malls ,city centres ,trains,and people in general.

The West soon backed off with Russia yet the West think they will solve the ME crisis..They won't, just make it worse .

 

[Jam_Man]

Didn't Nazi Germany have a belief in racial superiority, elimination of non aligned races, religions, sexualities, mental/ Physical persons, gypsies etc. And didn't other Facist parties follow the same doctrine?
Huge swathes of German and Axis society gave tacit or real approval of Hitlers henchmen and their actions.
The war on them and the belief had rules on the Allied side, most of the time, but "the gloves were off" and the armies of good got on with it with universal support AND destroyed the baddies.
Since then the Western powers have been pussy footing about; even Iraq was not full, all out, no holds bar stuff.
We are fighting these *******s, servicemen (and women) will lose the lives and limbs and they need to be supported and allowed to use all and every means to kill and destroy all those ISIL and their support base.

The Nazi ideology was nothing compared to what we are fighting now, It was a country led by a party with an organised army. Once we defeated the German armies they surrendered and that was it, many Germans didnt even believe in the Nazi policies and wanted Hitler gone way before the end.

Islamic extremism will not just go away if we defeat an army or a country,. if you invade Syria they wont just put up the white flag and return to their homes like the remnants of the German Army did, just like in Afghanistan they will run to the hills and fight a guerella war for a decade until we pull out and they will still be there. In the meantime through out the world extremism will grow due to the actions against their fellow muslims.

Its hard to see how this ever ends.

 

[mrsblue]

The Nazi ideology was nothing compared to what we are fighting now, It was a country led by a party with an organised army. Once we defeated the German armies they surrendered and that was it, many Germans didnt even believe in the Nazi policies and wanted Hitler gone way before the end.

Islamic extremism will not just go away if we defeat an army or a country,. if you invade Syria they wont just put up the white flag and return to their homes like the remnants of the German Army did, just like in Afghanistan they will run to the hills and fight a guerella war for a decade until we pull out and they will still be there. In the meantime through out the world extremism will grow due to the actions against their fellow muslims.

Its hard to see how this ever ends.

Complete agreement with you JM !

The Western Governments are foolish!

 

[Jam_Man]

Complete agreement with you JM !

The Western Governments are foolish!

Not even sure they are, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

You cant just do nothing, but I cant see what they can do that will actually solve anything, thats why the middle east is like it is, there is no simple solution.

 

[mrsblue]

Not even sure they are, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

You cant just do nothing, but I cant see what they can do that will actually solve anything, thats why the middle east is like it is, there is no simple solution.

We should have gave the Kurds arms and let the other Arab states sort it out,Everytime one Western bomb kills IS people they become instant martyrs and even worse another 500 want to sign up.

 

[Jam_Man]

Lucky America didn't just sit by and let the European nations sort it out in WWII....

We have allies in the middle east, we cant not do anything.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

I agree Jam-Man, it is whole bad news and not good situation; & personally I would want the UK and its Armed Forces to have nothing to do with the whole region BUT the decision has been made & they should be allowed to get the job done fully by all and every means at their disposal.

 

[mrsblue]

I agree Jam-Man, it is whole bad news and not good situation; & personally I would want the UK and its Armed Forces to have nothing to do with the whole region BUT the decision has been made & they should be allowed to get the job done fully by all and every means at their disposal.

The West will send troops in again resulting in many lives being lost to little avail.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

The Nazi ideology was nothing compared to what we are fighting now, It was a country led by a party with an organised army. Once we defeated the German armies they surrendered and that was it, many Germans didnt even believe in the Nazi policies and wanted Hitler gone way before the end.

Islamic extremism will not just go away if we defeat an army or a country,. if you invade Syria they wont just put up the white flag and return to their homes like the remnants of the German Army did, just like in Afghanistan they will run to the hills and fight a guerella war for a decade until we pull out and they will still be there. In the meantime through out the world extremism will grow due to the actions against their fellow muslims.

Its hard to see how this ever ends.

Doesn't this rather fly in the face of the old chestnut that the 'vast majority' of Muslims don't support ISIL or the extremists? Surely they won't care if we destroy these ****pigs. Or are you perhaps all too aware that they do support this butchery, even if they wouldn't actively participate? Whatever the case, and however many of these pondlife are out there, we have the technology, the men and the weaponry to destroy them. We lack the will.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Doesn't this rather fly in the face of the old chestnut that the 'vast majority' of Muslims don't support ISIL or the extremists? Surely they won't care if we destroy these ****pigs. Or are you perhaps all too aware that they do support this butchery, even if they wouldn't actively participate? Whatever the case, and however many of these pondlife are out there, we have the technology, the men and the weaponry to destroy them. We lack the will.

Not at all, it just means those with an extremist outlook will be more inclined to join the fight, those with a moderate outlook will generally remain moderate.
Those with an agenda will look to reinforce their agenda, those without an agenda won't. I'm sure you can empathise with that. Knoworimean?

 

[londonblue]

In the meantime I'm still waiting for people to cry out about civilian deaths in the strike against IS:

CBC

The administration doesn't deny the possibility that civilians might recently have been killed by coalition airstrikes. It hasn't, on the other hand, confirmed the reports gathered by non-government organizations

"We do take extreme caution and care in the conduct of these missions. But there's risk in any military operation," Pentagon Press Secretary Rear Admiral John Kirby told a Defence Department briefing last week.

"There's a special kind of risk when you do air operations. We're cognizant of that and we're going to keep working at it."

CNN

New rules meant to temper the civilian death toll from unmanned U.S. drones won't apply in the fight against terrorists in Iraq and Syria, the White House says.

Interestingly I haven't heard anyone claim that these are war crimes, or that these people should be taken to court.

IMO this is double standards of the worst kind.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Didn't take Godwin's law too long to come into play on this thread.