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Fire in North Kensington.


I thought it was utter bilge. Another Grenfell ghoul trying to political point score by dancing on the graves of the dead and using the Firefighters kudos in vain.

First paragraph he gets his facts wrong about the fire and goes on to say tower blocks had community spirit until Thatcher.....Utter tripe. Then throws in a few other safe punches like austerity and Brexit. Surprised how easily you Guardian readers are fooled.....Then again:winking:
 
I thought it was utter bilge. Another Grenfell ghoul trying to political point score by dancing on the graves of the dead and using the Firefighters kudos in vain.

First paragraph he gets his facts wrong about the fire and goes on to say tower blocks had community spirit until Thatcher.....Utter tripe. Then throws in a few other safe punches like austerity and Brexit. Surprised how easily you Guardian readers are fooled.....Then again:winking:

Actually,our younger daughter sent me the link.She's a specialist in urban planning and not a Guardian reader,as far as I know.:raspberry:
 
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Actually,our younger daugter sent me the link.She's a specialist in urban planning and not a Guardian reader,as far as I know.:raspberry:

Your not trying to deflect responsibility are you, we have had enough of that already over Grenfell.

Hopefully she can learn from this disaster where the desire for all things green and trendy overruled safety.
 
Your not trying to deflect responsibility are you, we have had enough of that already over Grenfell.

Hopefully she can learn from this disaster where the desire for all things green and trendy overruled safety.

Nope.And I've read the whole article and not just the first paragraph.:smile:

In answer to your second point, the journalist draws attention to the cost cutting involved in the savings on a sprinkler system-
 
Nope.And I've read the whole article and not just the first paragraph.:smile:

In answer to your second point, the journalist draws attention to the cost cutting involved in the savings on a sprinkler system-

They are not standard in every tower block. Besides they would not be on the outside of a residential and would have probably been ineffective as water was needed on every floor because the cladding not only acted as an accelerant, it also gave off a tremendous amount of heat.

The crime here is the testing and passing of the cladding and the absolute refusal of governments and councils to act when there were clear warnings. Not just in London but all around the world over a number of years. With a dangerous product the testing should have been stricter rather than reduced and more control over which brands could be used on any building.

If Les and Gary's second hand shop had a sofa made of that, they would have been prosecuted just for selling it let alone if it caused a fire.
 
They are not standard in every tower block. Besides they would not be on the outside of a residential and would have probably been ineffective as water was needed on every floor because the cladding not only acted as an accelerant, it also gave off a tremendous amount of heat.

The crime here is the testing and passing of the cladding and the absolute refusal of governments and councils to act when there were clear warnings. Not just in London but all around the world over a number of years. With a dangerous product the testing should have been stricter rather than reduced and more control over which brands could be used on any building.

If Les and Gary's second hand shop had a sofa made of that, they would have been prosecuted just for selling it let alone if it caused a fire.

That takes me back to my pool playing days. Les Harvey was a top referee, and Gary Bell played for England B. I challenged and played Gary for cash at Wonderland on the seafront. Les was a great character, old school type with good morals. Les sadly died a few years ago in Las Vegas on holiday after getting pneumonia. Gary then became a pool referee as well, aside from running that very successful Les & Gary's shop.
Sorry for that, but things come up on here in a thread and you get side lined. I'm sure it's happened to us all. Back on topic. Yes I agree about the testing and passing of dangerous materials. Absolute disgrace.
 
They are not standard in every tower block. Besides they would not be on the outside of a residential and would have probably been ineffective as water was needed on every floor because the cladding not only acted as an accelerant, it also gave off a tremendous amount of heat.

The crime here is the testing and passing of the cladding and the absolute refusal of governments and councils to act when there were clear warnings. Not just in London but all around the world over a number of years. With a dangerous product the testing should have been stricter rather than reduced and more control over which brands could be used on any building.

If Les and Gary's second hand shop had a sofa made of that, they would have been prosecuted just for selling it let alone if it caused a fire.

Don't think anyone,including me, ever said they were.Bet if you live in an exclusive,private tower block they're "de rigueur," though.

While I agree about what you rightly call a "crime," my understanding is that this sort of cladding has only been used in the UK in recent years and not in more safety conscious countries in the EU like Germany etc.
 
Sadly as most people in the LFB predicted the Grenfell Inquiry will descend into a blame game.

Rather than facts to establish truth, so we can implement laws and recommendations to save lives in the future. We have surviving families making opening statements in which thy blame various people. Silence from building and product firms. Then just to add to the growing anger amongst Firefighters the FBU have had to defend its members from accusations of racism on the night by Imran Khan who is a lawyer representing some of the bereaved and surviving families.
 
They seem to be trying to blame anyone that said stay in your flats. Staying in the flat is the safest option when the cladding, the sprinkler system and everything else is right, as a fire in high rise flats is normally contained to that flat. Anyone giving advise to stay in your flat would have assumed that the cladding and everything else was O.K. as it had passed all the regulations.
This is not their fault as they are following procedure. This cheaper cladding was banned in some Countries, highly flammable under the right circumstances, so very dangerous. Yet to make and save more money, it went up on Grenfell. The buck has been passed, it needs to go back.
 
Sadly as most people in the LFB predicted the Grenfell Inquiry will descend into a blame game.

Rather than facts to establish truth, so we can implement laws and recommendations to save lives in the future. We have surviving families making opening statements in which thy blame various people. Silence from building and product firms. Then just to add to the growing anger amongst Firefighters the FBU have had to defend its members from accusations of racism on the night by Imran Khan who is a lawyer representing some of the bereaved and surviving families.

They seem to be trying to blame anyone that said stay in your flats. Staying in the flat is the safest option when the cladding, the sprinkler system and everything else is right, as a fire in high rise flats is normally contained to that flat. Anyone giving advise to stay in your flat would have assumed that the cladding and everything else was O.K. as it had passed all the regulations.
This is not their fault as they are following procedure. This cheaper cladding was banned in some Countries, highly flammable under the right circumstances, so very dangerous. Yet to make and save more money, it went up on Grenfell. The buck has been passed, it needs to go back.

Hopefully,the Police's Criminal investigation, which will come after the inquest, will lead to prosecutions for corporate manslaughter.Although,personally, I won't be holding my breath. :whistling:

Clearly the LFB 's "stay put" policy needs to be revised too.
 
Hopefully,the Police's Criminal investigation, which will come after the inquest, will lead to prosecutions for corporate manslaughter.Although,personally, I won't be holding my breath. :whistling:

Clearly the LFB 's "stay put" policy needs to be revised too
.


No, in most cases it would be the right advice. With Grenfell , tragically, it wasn't, but that it not the fault of the fire brigade.
 
No, in most cases it would be the right advice. With Grenfell , tragically, it wasn't, but that it not the fault of the fire brigade.

Please tell that to the families of those who died. While I agree that "in most cases" this "would be the right advice" I don't think there's any question that at Grenfell, this particular advice ( finally revised at a late stage in the fire) cost some people their lives.Without doubt,the flammable cladding cost a lot more.
 
No, in most cases it would be the right advice. With Grenfell , tragically, it wasn't, but that it not the fault of the fire brigade.

That advice, for all sorts of reasons, has saved endless lives over the years. If you only have one staircase that has to be used by the fire brigade, then it becomes dangerous as soon as they open doors on the fire floor etc. The people in in the control room answering phones cant say "Stay in your flat.... Unless it has been cladded with badly fitted, flammable and banned material."

Besides, most did try to leave their flat but due to fire doors etc failing, the only stairwell was blocked with smoke so they went back inside. The top floor had the most bodies on because people from lower floors had gone up, as they obviously felt thy couldn't get down.
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