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Rd 1, Heat 2 - Elgar v St Alban

Elgar or St. Alban


  • Total voters
    41
  • Poll closed .

Napster

No ⭐
Joined
Oct 27, 2003
Messages
38,029
Location
The wilds of Kent
Sir Edward William Elgar, 1st Baronet, OM, GCVO, the composer of Pomp and Circumstance, nominated by roots maul
versus
Saint Alban, the first English Christian martyr, nominated by Pickled Seal
 
alban.jpg

Saint Alban was the first British Christian martyr.

To understand his importance for England, it is important to remember that many have called for him to replace St George as the patron saint of England, or even as Britain as a whole.

Alban was a pagan living at Verulamium (now St Albans), who converted to Christianity, and was executed by decapitation on a hill above the Roman settlement of Verulamium. St Albans Abbey was later founded near this site.

The date of Alban's execution has never been firmly established, although The Anglo-Saxon Chronicles lists the year 283.

His crime?

Alban sheltered a Christian priest in his home, and was converted and baptised by him. When the Roman soldiers were sent to Alban's house to look for the priest, Alban exchanged cloaks with the priest and was arrested in his stead at Chantry Island. Alban was taken before the magistrate, who was furious at the deception and ordered that Alban be given the punishment due to the priest if he had indeed become a Christian. Alban declared, "I worship and adore the true and living God who created all things." These words are still used in prayer at St Albans Abbey.

St Alban was eventually sacrificed to the Roman gods and was condemned to death. He was taken out of the town across the River Ver to the top of the hill opposite. The reputed place of his beheading is where St Albans Cathedral now stands.

St Bede tells several legends associated with the story of Alban's execution. On his way to the execution, Alban had to cross a river, and finding the bridge full of people, he made the waters part and crossed over on dry land. And the executioner was so impressed with Alban's faith that he also converted to Christianity on the spot, and refused to kill him. Another executioner was quickly found (whose eyes dropped out of his head when he did the deed), and the first was killed after Alban, thereby becoming the second British Christian martyr.

180px-Shrine-of-st-alban.jpg

His shrine in St Alban's Cathedral

St Alban's Cathedral website read: "Ever since those early times, people have journeyed to this place to remember Alban and all that he stands for. They have come to pray for peace and healing and to seek God. They came in such numbers in the early middle ages that St Albans became the premier Abbey in all England. They come here still."

England has a history of matyrdom, it is something that littered our history books. There have been protestants killed by catholics, catholics killed by protestants, and all other nature of early Christians willing to die for their faith. Perhaps it is something to do with our English-ness that we are ready to die for what we beleive in? St Alban was just the first of literally thousands who have died over the last 1800 years in England for their Christian faith. I do think the calls for him to be our true patron saint are very well founded indeed.
 
alban.jpg

Saint Alban was the first British Christian martyr.

To understand his importance for England, it is important to remember that many have called for him to replace St George as the patron saint of England, or even as Britain as a whole.

Alban was a pagan living at Verulamium (now St Albans), who converted to Christianity, and was executed by decapitation on a hill above the Roman settlement of Verulamium. St Albans Abbey was later founded near this site.

The date of Alban's execution has never been firmly established, although The Anglo-Saxon Chronicles lists the year 283.

His crime?

Alban sheltered a Christian priest in his home, and was converted and baptised by him. When the Roman soldiers were sent to Alban's house to look for the priest, Alban exchanged cloaks with the priest and was arrested in his stead at Chantry Island. Alban was taken before the magistrate, who was furious at the deception and ordered that Alban be given the punishment due to the priest if he had indeed become a Christian. Alban declared, "I worship and adore the true and living God who created all things." These words are still used in prayer at St Albans Abbey.

St Alban was eventually sacrificed to the Roman gods and was condemned to death. He was taken out of the town across the River Ver to the top of the hill opposite. The reputed place of his beheading is where St Albans Cathedral now stands.

St Bede tells several legends associated with the story of Alban's execution. On his way to the execution, Alban had to cross a river, and finding the bridge full of people, he made the waters part and crossed over on dry land. And the executioner was so impressed with Alban's faith that he also converted to Christianity on the spot, and refused to kill him. Another executioner was quickly found (whose eyes dropped out of his head when he did the deed), and the first was killed after Alban, thereby becoming the second British Christian martyr.

180px-Shrine-of-st-alban.jpg

His shrine in St Alban's Cathedral

St Alban's Cathedral website read: "Ever since those early times, people have journeyed to this place to remember Alban and all that he stands for. They have come to pray for peace and healing and to seek God. They came in such numbers in the early middle ages that St Albans became the premier Abbey in all England. They come here still."

England has a history of matyrdom, it is something that littered our history books. There have been protestants killed by catholics, catholics killed by protestants, and all other nature of early Christians willing to die for their faith. Perhaps it is something to do with our English-ness that we are ready to die for what we beleive in? St Alban was just the first of literally thousands who have died over the last 1800 years in England for their Christian faith. I do think the calls for him to be our true patron saint are very well founded indeed.

****ing religion all it brings is war!
 
Hatred and bad people bring about war :)

The belief in God has persistently led to war throughout the whole history of humanity. From the earliest of times in the Paleolithic period up to the very present, mankind has experienced countless armed conflicts that took place in the name of God. There have been more than a million wars over the last 100,000 years and practically all of them were directly or indirectly the result of religion.

There are two reasons for this situation.

Whether it is the most primitive religions of the Paleolithic period or the large ones of today, all creeds have always claimed that their particular God is omnipotent. Another common denominator of all religions is the claim that their God is the only true one.

With such a vision of things, a clash is inevitable. When two persons or two nations that venerate a different God come in contact, both are inevitably driven to try to impose their God on the other. The end result is conflict, which frequently escalates into bloodshed.

In the absolutist and irrational vision of the world of religious people, there is no room for compromise.

The second reason explaining the inherent violence of religions is what resides at their very core. Everything that happens in the world, according to them, is due to the will of God. For religious persons, whatever occurs, no matter how much suffering it brings on to millions, cannot be condemned because God is infallible. People must therefore resign to the whims of the Almighty and accept everything with resignation. That ultimately translates into a state of mental passivity and under those circumstances science cannot make any progress.

Religions however, not only indoctrinate people into passivity. They also impose a harsh repression on those who dare think scientifically, suppressing in such a way most of the remaining inventing inclinations of a population. The amount of intellectuals and scientists who through history were imprisoned, tortured, and murdered is almost as numerous as the stars in the Milky Way.

Since progress cannot be attained without science and technology, religions ineluctably condemn nations to poverty and when nations are poor they always turn violent. Poverty is such an atrocious and painful condition, that when a country endures it people inevitably resort to violence as an instinctive mechanism of survival.

Countless wars through history were the result of territorial disputes, ethnic differences or some other non-religious factor. However, it was the poverty of the parties involved what really pushed them into confrontation, and that was the result of religion. When people are indigent, minor things such as linguistic, ethnic, or cultural differences drive them to war.

As the biggest hindrance of progress, religion is without the slightest of doubts, the cause of all wars. History shows that there is nothing more pernicious for the well-being of society than religion.
 
I'm finding hard to vote for a Christian on the basis of my atheism, but apart from a nice tune, I need to know what Elgar did and I'm far to busy to Wiki!
 
TB, we are going off topic....

I'm not digging out the posts, but I would be pretty sure you were supporting St Georges Day? Here is St Alban, perhaps a 'truer' patron saint of England? That's why I am asking you to vote St Alban - not beacuse I think religion is great, nor because I want you to become a Christian NOR because I think religion has had nothing to do with wars (I have a real interest in the crusades, religion played a pretty key part in that if I remember rightly ;))
 
TB, we are going off topic....

I'm not digging out the posts, but I would be pretty sure you were supporting St Georges Day? Here is St Alban, perhaps a 'truer' patron saint of England? That's why I am asking you to vote St Alban - not beacuse I think religion is great, nor because I want you to become a Christian NOR because I think religion has had nothing to do with wars (I have a real interest in the crusades, religion played a pretty key part in that if I remember rightly ;))

No I was supporting a day for English-ness not St George
 
No I was supporting a day for English-ness not St George

Yup, I agree. Unfortunately you can't ignore our Christian history, and I just feel if we have to pick one person to represent us as a nation and be our patron saint, I think it should be St Alban, and hence me putting him forward.

I don't expect all of you to agree, nor do I expect St Alban to make it to the final or even the next round :)

I just though I'd throw him into the mix, and possible even educate a few peeps on here... next time you drive down the M1 on the way back from small northern team away day and see the signs for St Albans one or two of you may just say, "That's the bloke pickedseal put up as an English hero..." ;)
 
I can't vote for someone based on their sacrifice for religion, or on accounts that he parted water..... but I never knew anything about St Alban til this thread so it was a nice little insight nonetheless.
 
The belief in God has persistently led to war throughout the whole history of humanity. From the earliest of times in the Paleolithic period up to the very present, mankind has experienced countless armed conflicts that took place in the name of God. There have been more than a million wars over the last 100,000 years and practically all of them were directly or indirectly the result of religion.

There are two reasons for this situation.

Whether it is the most primitive religions of the Paleolithic period or the large ones of today, all creeds have always claimed that their particular God is omnipotent. Another common denominator of all religions is the claim that their God is the only true one.

With such a vision of things, a clash is inevitable. When two persons or two nations that venerate a different God come in contact, both are inevitably driven to try to impose their God on the other. The end result is conflict, which frequently escalates into bloodshed.

In the absolutist and irrational vision of the world of religious people, there is no room for compromise.

The second reason explaining the inherent violence of religions is what resides at their very core. Everything that happens in the world, according to them, is due to the will of God. For religious persons, whatever occurs, no matter how much suffering it brings on to millions, cannot be condemned because God is infallible. People must therefore resign to the whims of the Almighty and accept everything with resignation. That ultimately translates into a state of mental passivity and under those circumstances science cannot make any progress.

Religions however, not only indoctrinate people into passivity. They also impose a harsh repression on those who dare think scientifically, suppressing in such a way most of the remaining inventing inclinations of a population. The amount of intellectuals and scientists who through history were imprisoned, tortured, and murdered is almost as numerous as the stars in the Milky Way.

Since progress cannot be attained without science and technology, religions ineluctably condemn nations to poverty and when nations are poor they always turn violent. Poverty is such an atrocious and painful condition, that when a country endures it people inevitably resort to violence as an instinctive mechanism of survival.

Countless wars through history were the result of territorial disputes, ethnic differences or some other non-religious factor. However, it was the poverty of the parties involved what really pushed them into confrontation, and that was the result of religion. When people are indigent, minor things such as linguistic, ethnic, or cultural differences drive them to war.

As the biggest hindrance of progress, religion is without the slightest of doubts, the cause of all wars. History shows that there is nothing more pernicious for the well-being of society than religion.

I always think it is fair to include a reference to the original author when you use their words.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/religion-cause-of-all-wars.htmlhttp://www.shrimperzone.com/vb/showthread.php?t=51561
 
Elgar has a ****ing HUGE 'tache, and therefore gets my vote.

Got to say that this is by far the most persuasive argument put forward so far on this thread.

I liked the idea of Alban supporting asylum seekers, which is both heroic and an English trait, but as a martyr he's just encouraging all those suicide bombers.

I also prefer my water miracles to include transformation into alcohol, rather than a mere parting, so I'll hold off casting my vote for the time being.
 
Has to be pickled seal nomination, anyone that will die for a cause that they strongly believe in, especially when one of the few, deserves the vote
 
Sir Edward William Elgar, 1st Baronet, OM, GCVO (2 June 1857 – 23 February 1934)

I'll keep it simple for the moment (with obvious hacking from wikipedia)

Edward Elgar: The man who wrote the unofficial national anthem of England.


Born to a music shop owner in the village of Lower Broadheath outside Worcester, Edward Elgar is the 'small town boy-made-good'. Musically he was self taught, using textbooks and manuscripts from his father's shop. These he would take to the countryside and study, creating the link for him between music and nature.

Unable to afford the tuition fees to study music, Elgar left school at 15 and worked in a solicitor's office. He contined to study music and began making his first public performances at this time playing the violin and organ.

Married at 29, he later moved to London to concentrate on his music.

His first major success was the 'Enigma Variations' at the age of 42.

This consisted of an 'original theme' with 14 variations of it, each one named after a friend of Elgar. The unsolved part of this work is the 'enigma theme' which runs through the whole of the variations but is never heard. Elgar himself said,

'The enigma I will not explain - its 'dark saying' must be left unguessed, and I warn you that the apparent connection between the Variations and the Theme is often of the slightest texture; further, through and over the whole set another and larger theme 'goes', but is not played.... So the principal Theme never appears, even as in some late dramas ... the chief character is never on stage.'

The most widely known variation is 'Nimrod'.

Elgar is probably best known for the five Pomp and Circumstance Marches, composed between 1901 and 1930. Shortly after he composed the first march, Elgar set the trio melody to words by A. C. Benson in his Coronation Ode to mark the coronation of King Edward VII. The suggestion had already been made (allegedly by the future King himself) that words should be fitted to the broad tune which formed the trio section of this march. Against the advice of his friends, Elgar suggested that Benson furnish further words to allow him to include it in the new work. The result was Land of Hope and Glory, which formed the finale of the Ode and was also issued (with slightly different words) as a separate song. The work was immensely popular and is now considered an unofficial national anthem. At last, he had made the leap from accomplished back-country musician to England's foremost composer. It also gained Elgar the highest recognition he could have dreamed of--honorary degrees, a knighthood, special royal audiences, and a triumphal three-day festival of his music at Covent Garden attended by the King and Queen.


Elgar's Symphony No. 1 (1908) was given one hundred performances in its first year. The Violin Concerto in B minor (1910) was commissioned by the world-renowned violinist Fritz Kreisler and was a resounding success, premiered by Kreisler with the Philharmonic Society of London, the composer conducting. In 1911, the year of the completion of his Symphony No. 2, he had the Order of Merit bestowed upon him.


If the Heroes Cup could be played out to music- that music would be by Elgar.


And has been previously posted- what a 'tache!
 
There have been more than a million wars over the last 100,000 years and practically all of them were directly or indirectly the result of religion.

ROFLMAO. That is the most egregious b*llsh*t I've ever read. Let's roll off a few wars that aren't about religion, shall we:

World War I
World War II
Wars of the Roses
100 Years War
Any war started by Genghis Khan
American Civil War
China's war with Japan
Trojan War

Wars are usually about natural resources, living space, wealth, power, greed, envy, weakness and anger. War is caused by man's fallibility - and I use "man" advisedly, since most women are far too sensible to fight wars - which are seldom started for good or valid reasons (although the nation or nations attacked do at least have the valid excuse of having to act in self-defence).

The amount of intellectuals and scientists who through history were imprisoned, tortured, and murdered is almost as numerous as the stars in the Milky Way.

LOL - another epic fail.

:D

The number of stars in the Milky Way is estimated as being between 200 and 400 billion. The total number of people who have ever been born in the entire history of the planet is estimated as being c. 102 billion.

Never mind, eh?! Never let the facts get in the way of a good bit of bigotry!
 
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