You Can Only Moan...

[EastStandBlue]

Got a leaflet today from Amess and the BNP, huzzah!

Yep, got that last week. Drew a knob on his head and threw it in the bin.

 

[BrettieAngell]

Yep, got that last week. Drew a knob on his head and threw it in the bin.

Why there is a picture of Griffin next to Churchill I will never ever understand!

 

[davewebbsbrain]

In brief, people have died to give us the right to live in a democracy and to have the vote. Women gave their lives for universal sufferage.

Everyone should vote.

For those who don't support any of the candidates there should be a "none of the above" option, as the first option on the list to negate the "Donkey Vote" effect.

Simples.

I saw a report on the TV the other day where Terry Marsh had changed his name by deedpoll to 'None of the above' and that is what he is entering as. He pointed out, much like you did, that many people would vote 'none of the above' and this is his cunning plan to get voted in.

Just found the link to the Echo site.

None of the above

 

[Benfleet A1]

I saw a report on the TV the other day where Terry Marsh had changed his name by deedpoll to 'None of the above' and that is what he is entering as. He pointed out, much like you did, that many people would vote 'none of the above' and this is his cunning plan to get voted in.

Just found the link to the Echo site.

None of the above

Yeah, he is standing in my neck of the woods. But because he couldn't make his mind up whether he was Labour or Lib Dem I wont be voting for him. Looks like its going to be UKIP for me.

 

[OldBlueLady]

I definitely think it should be compulsory to vote, it's so easy to arrange a postal vote these days if you can't be arsed to go to the polling station, there really is no excuse. The only exception should be medical emergencies/illness which prevents you.

Even if it is a foregone conclusion, you should still go and cast your vote. It's a right and a privilege and therefore your duty.

 

[TrueBlue]

I definitely think it should be compulsory to vote, it's so easy to arrange a postal vote these days if you can't be arsed to go to the polling station, there really is no excuse. The only exception should be medical emergencies/illness which prevents you.

Even if it is a foregone conclusion, you should still go and cast your vote. It's a right and a privilege and therefore your duty.

A right that people died for

 

[OldBlueLady]

A right that people died for

Exactly, hence privilege. My son is missing out on voting by 2 days, but I'd hope he would have done so if he'd have been able. Who knows, in 6 months when they have to go back to the country he might get the chance then.

Always used to take the kids in with me when they were younger, so that they understood what was going on and wouldn't find it too daunting when the time comes. Think it's part of your parental duty to instil this in your young, that they have a responsibility to vote.

 

[Dave Smiths Love Child]

Its funny certain people on here moan about our involvement in wars abroad, where the politics is riddled with corruption and people are bullied into voting for the leaders who make their life a misery, here we have the opposite, a system which I agree is not fair to smaller parties but neverthe less a better system than some.

Even if you vote BNP ( Gags ), UKIP or Monster Looney it is not a wasted vote if its what YOU BELIEVE IN.

 

[canveyshrimper]

Its funny certain people on here moan about our involvement in wars abroad, where the politics is riddled with corruption and people are bullied into voting for the leaders who make their life a misery, here we have the opposite, a system which I agree is not fair to smaller parties but neverthe less a better system than some.

Even if you vote BNP ( Gags ), UKIP or Monster Looney it is not a wasted vote if its what YOU BELIEVE IN.

Even more so if Clegg has his way and gets electoral reform which will bring in PR. Parliament (as the Euro Parliament has) will then have BNP/UKIP members. Then watch people like Clegg getting on their high horse about the electorate voting in such MP's.

As Ken Livingstone said if voting changed anything it would be abolished.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Even more so if Clegg has his way and gets electoral reform which will bring in PR. Parliament (as the Euro Parliament has) will then have BNP/UKIP members. Then watch people like Clegg getting on their high horse about the electorate voting in such MP's.

As Ken Livingstone said if voting changed anything it would be abolished.

I disagree with you there, Harry. Most PR systems are subject to a regional cap - e.g. a party must get (say) 10% of the vote within a particular region before they get a seat. However, if 10% of the people in any given area of the UK vote BNP, then whether others like it or not, their choice must be respected and the BNP must be given seats in Parliament.

The rise in the BNP has come about because of the failure of the mainstream parties to address the plight of the white underclass in this country. It's time they addressed that failure. If they did, people might then realise just what a horrible lot the BNP are, and stop voting for them.

 

[canveyshrimper]

I disagree with you there, Harry. Most PR systems are subject to a regional cap - e.g. a party must get (say) 10% of the vote within a particular region before they get a seat. However, if 10% of the people in any given area of the UK vote BNP, then whether others like it or not, their choice must be respected and the BNP must be given seats in Parliament.

The rise in the BNP has come about because of the failure of the mainstream parties to address the plight of the white underclass in this country. It's time they addressed that failure. If they did, people might then realise just what a horrible lot the BNP are, and stop voting for them.

You are spot on in your second paragraph Matt, and it's time that this particular nettle was grasped and dealt with. It's acknowledged that many (probably traditional Labour voters) feel they are disenfranchised, hence the rise of the BNP who will continue to play on their fears and perceptions.

Under the current first past the post system the BNP will not win a seat in Parliament. Margaret Hodge should retain her seat in Barking, the only minority party I see winning a seat is the impressive Caroline Lucas in Brighton Pavilion. My point about PR was more about how politicians react when the electorate don't do what they want. I remember a few years back a far right party winning seats in Austria, and the then Lib Dem leader Charles Kennedy expressing his disgust and indignation, Austria has a system of PR.

I reckon that taken on a regional basis that the BNP could win possibly win that 10% in and around East London, therefore under PR we could be treated to the sight of the odious Nick Griffin taking a seat in the Commons. If this happened I'd bet that we would hear howls of indignation from Clegg and the Lib Dems, yet the people have voted under the very system he wanted.

The first past the post system is flawed and maybe more so if Labour can form a minority government by getting less than a third of the vote as polls are indicating. But I am not convinced about PR and the likelihood of a permanent coalition government for years to come.

 

[osymandus]

You are spot on in your second paragraph Matt, and it's time that this particular nettle was grasped and dealt with. It's acknowledged that many (probably traditional Labour voters) feel they are disenfranchised, hence the rise of the BNP who will continue to play on their fears and perceptions.

Under the current first past the post system the BNP will not win a seat in Parliament. Margaret Hodge should retain her seat in Barking, the only minority party I see winning a seat is the impressive Caroline Lucas in Brighton Pavilion. My point about PR was more about how politicians react when the electorate don't do what they want. I remember a few years back a far right party winning seats in Austria, and the then Lib Dem leader Charles Kennedy expressing his disgust and indignation, Austria has a system of PR.

I reckon that taken on a regional basis that the BNP could win possibly win that 10% in and around East London, therefore under PR we could be treated to the sight of the odious Nick Griffin taking a seat in the Commons. If this happened I'd bet that we would hear howls of indignation from Clegg and the Lib Dems, yet the people have voted under the very system he wanted.

The first past the post system is flawed and maybe more so if Labour can form a minority government by getting less than a third of the vote as polls are indicating. But I am not convinced about PR and the likelihood of a permanent coalition government for years to come.

But it is democracy , and more importantly it forces people to be knowledgeable and aware of their vote. If your after people being more aware of whats going on force them . Yes rightly so people would complain if the BNP got in they woulndt last very long and most likely be removed very soon at the next elections.

The most successful European countries us PR . It is frown upon here because as most think that don;t fit in with the ideal of a "English " or "British " way of thinking even if it is successful. The Tory press security on Radio 2 yesterday said it fails in many countries and when pressed to say which he could only come up with 1 , Belgium (ignoring the hundreds of years of issues it has anyway ).

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

If this happened I'd bet that we would hear howls of indignation from Clegg and the Lib Dems, yet the people have voted under the very system he wanted.

As a supporter of both the Lib Dems and PR, I would be extremely disappointed if they did howl indignantly. So far as I am concerned, all parties must respect the wish of the people; and if they don't like that wish, they need to do something about it.

As for PR, it needs to be the right form of PR. I think the Irish system of STV but within multi-member constituencies would be my preference. For instance, rather than have three seats for Lewisham (East, West and Deptford), have one seat which elects three members.

You might then have two Labour MPs but one other MP (possibly Green, possibly Lib Dem) - which would not only be fairer, but would also (IMHO) improve the constituency MP-elector relationship. For instance, I'd be able to go and speak to an MP with whom I had common cause, rather than being stuck with a Labour MP for whom I never have, nor ever will have, voted.

Matt

 

[osymandus]

As a supporter of both the Lib Dems and PR, I would be extremely disappointed if they did howl indignantly. So far as I am concerned, all parties must respect the wish of the people; and if they don't like that wish, they need to do something about it.

As for PR, it needs to be the right form of PR. I think the Irish system of STV but within multi-member constituencies would be my preference. For instance, rather than have three seats for Lewisham (East, West and Deptford), have one seat which elects three members.

You might then have two Labour MPs but one other MP (possibly Green, possibly Lib Dem) - which would not only be fairer, but would also (IMHO) improve the constituency MP-elector relationship. For instance, I'd be able to go and speak to an MP with whom I had common cause, rather than being stuck with a Labour MP for whom I never have, nor ever will have, voted.

Matt

Totally agree. People are dejected by the overal parties at a local level as so Matt rightly says they can have a person with who they share no common ideology . Also we can then vote on the person even if they are of a party we don't agree with (a Teddy Taylor , TOny Benn , Vince Cable type)

Lib Dems unite ... btw Matt is that how your Butler will be voting ;)

 

[canveyshrimper]

But it is democracy , and more importantly it forces people to be knowledgeable and aware of their vote. If your after people being more aware of whats going on force them . Yes rightly so people would complain if the BNP got in they woulndt last very long and most likely be removed very soon at the next elections.

The most successful European countries us PR . It is frown upon here because as most think that don;t fit in with the ideal of a "English " or "British " way of thinking even if it is successful. The Tory press security on Radio 2 yesterday said it fails in many countries and when pressed to say which he could only come up with 1 , Belgium (ignoring the hundreds of years of issues it has anyway ).

I didn't say it wasn't democracy, and FWIW I am not sure if it will force people to be more knowledgeable with their vote. As a for instance many will vote Labour because that's how they've always voted and always will. I don't see how you can say that the BNP wouldn't last long unless the burning issues where the BNP score are not dealt with.

There have been many examples of governments falling because of disagreements between coalitions. I think Italy has had something in the region of 40 elections since the end of WWII. The only time that coalitions have really worked in Britain is during war time. While it's slightly off tack, a LIb-Lab pact in the 70's propped up the ailing Callaghan government, which was dying on it's feet and at the mercy of militant Unions during the "winter of discontent", and had to be bailed out by the IMF. My fear is that if we do have a hung Parliament it will be more moribund that it has under the last year of Labour staggering from one disaster to another.

 

[canveyshrimper]

As a supporter of both the Lib Dems and PR, I would be extremely disappointed if they did howl indignantly. So far as I am concerned, all parties must respect the wish of the people; and if they don't like that wish, they need to do something about it.

As for PR, it needs to be the right form of PR. I think the Irish system of STV but within multi-member constituencies would be my preference. For instance, rather than have three seats for Lewisham (East, West and Deptford), have one seat which elects three members.

You might then have two Labour MPs but one other MP (possibly Green, possibly Lib Dem) - which would not only be fairer, but would also (IMHO) improve the constituency MP-elector relationship. For instance, I'd be able to go and speak to an MP with whom I had common cause, rather than being stuck with a Labour MP for whom I never have, nor ever will have, voted.

Matt

Charles Kennedy has a bit of previous here when he was howling about how Austria could elect far right MP's, when in all fairness it had bugger all to do with him. I'm not sure I'd like a foreign politician trunking in about who we've elected here.

Totally agree. People are dejected by the overal parties at a local level as so Matt rightly says they can have a person with who they share no common ideology . Also we can then vote on the person even if they are of a party we don't agree with (a Teddy Taylor , TOny Benn , Vince Cable type)

Lib Dems unite ... btw Matt is that how your Butler will be voting ;)

He'll vote how he's damn well told.

 

[Mad Cyril]

The rise in the BNP has come about because of the failure of the mainstream parties to address the plight of the white underclass in this country. It's time they addressed that failure. If they did, people might then realise just what a horrible lot the BNP are, and stop voting for them.

What about the non-white/English underclass or don't they exist because they are given £1M council houses the second they set foot in the UK?

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

What about the non-white/English underclass or don't they exist because they are given £1M council houses the second they set foot in the UK?

Exactamundo.

On a serious note, there's a perception that the immigrant underclass has been bumped up the housing register; and, in any event, there's a natural tendency to wonder why we're not looking after "our own" better than those who arrive on these shores.

Besides, there aren't as many non-white underclass as white underclass; and the former aren't likely to vote BNP any time soon.

 

[osymandus]

I didn't say it wasn't democracy, and FWIW I am not sure if it will force people to be more knowledgeable with their vote. As a for instance many will vote Labour because that's how they've always voted and always will. I don't see how you can say that the BNP wouldn't last long unless the burning issues where the BNP score are not dealt with.

There have been many examples of governments falling because of disagreements between coalitions. I think Italy has had something in the region of 40 elections since the end of WWII. The only time that coalitions have really worked in Britain is during war time. While it's slightly off tack, a LIb-Lab pact in the 70's propped up the ailing Callaghan government, which was dying on it's feet and at the mercy of militant Unions during the "winter of discontent", and had to be bailed out by the IMF. My fear is that if we do have a hung Parliament it will be more moribund that it has under the last year of Labour staggering from one disaster to another.

The 70's was cited as well however in our case (Italy is teh birth place of the Borgias , the Mafia the Catholic church its a cultural thing they argue like mad , yet they still run a pretty good life style ) we have an entirly different outlook it will also force the political landscape and their bakers to change (hence teh reason the Tories and ther press followers are so worried), our culture was traditionally polarised and very rearly did it stray from and absolutes of percieved rights or wrongs . We are an entirely different enviroment , people will be forced more becuase under a PR system they cant blame the parties only themselves and maybe thats what they are worried about.

 

[osymandus]

Charles Kennedy has a bit of previous here when he was howling about how Austria could elect far right MP's, when in all fairness it had bugger all to do with him. I'm not sure I'd like a foreign politician trunking in about who we've elected here.

One man's views , another reason for the party system to change and for us to stop looking at one individual as a "avatar" of their parties ideology