Raoul Moat

[osymandus]

They had already waited 7 hours! LOL They could have still been there now! He had every chance to drop the guns and concede defeat. It was clear he was only going out 1 way. Good IMO. Just another loon off the streets.

Oh and his brother sounds like a right ****. How did he intend to 'save' him? If Paul Gascoigne armed with Chicken and beer can't save someone, no-one can

Actually fatigue and rough living propably woul dhave made him collpase anyway , so no nerves or PTS for teh coppers who shot him .

 

[GBJ]

Actually fatigue and rough living propably woul dhave made him collpase anyway , so no nerves or PTS for teh coppers who shot him .

As we know, the human body acts in different ways, with different people. Moat was a fair sized unit, who looked like he'd survive a lot longer than a small skinny guy. Eventually he would have collapsed, but that could have been days later. My point is, why should the police have to wait for this to happen? I see what you're saying about PTS, but that's their job afterall. They know the ins and outs, before they sign up. They have to put him down asap IMO. For every second he's still 'free', he's a danger to people.

If this was America, no-one would have batted an eye-lid.

 

[SARF]

As we know, the human body acts in different ways, with different people. Moat was a fair sized unit, who looked like he'd survive a lot longer than a small skinny guy. Eventually he would have collapsed, but that could have been days later. My point is, why should the police have to wait for this to happen? I see what you're saying about PTS, but that's their job afterall. They know the ins and outs, before they sign up. They have to put him down asap IMO. For every second he's still 'free', he's a danger to people.


If this was America, no-one would have batted an eye-lid.

In america what he had done up to then was legal in fifteen states ;-)

 

[Jack The Flag]

Actually fatigue and rough living propably woul dhave made him collpase anyway , so no nerves or PTS for teh coppers who shot him .

Jesus why are you backing him?

He shot 3 people, if i was a copper i would of shot him!

 

[osymandus]

As we know, the human body acts in different ways, with different people. Moat was a fair sized unit, who looked like he'd survive a lot longer than a small skinny guy. Eventually he would have collapsed, but that could have been days later. My point is, why should the police have to wait for this to happen? I see what you're saying about PTS, but that's their job afterall. They know the ins and outs, before they sign up. They have to put him down asap IMO. For every second he's still 'free', he's a danger to people.

If this was America, no-one would have batted an eye-lid.

I think the point we're missing here is the mental states "they know what their we're getting into " he could survive for days " (though he already had been sleeping rough and the rain would have weakened him imagine taking a shower fr several hours " This information we received i judge to be not urgent ".

To put someone down in that way is to dehumanize them , (MHO ) how far doe this go and how long do you wnat that mind set to continue , if you capture one and stop them from reoccuring in the future isnt that better ? If we never find out why people flip out how do we prevent it from happning again or do we just wait and shoot people ?

 

[osymandus]

Jesus why are you backing him?

He shot 3 people, if i was a copper i would of shot him!

Re read what i have said im not backing him

 

[GBJ]

To put someone down in that way is to dehumanize them , (MHO ) how far doe this go and how long do you wnat that mind set to continue , if you capture one and stop them from reoccuring in the future isnt that better ? If we never find out why people flip out how do we prevent it from happning again or do we just wait and shoot people ?

You'll never prevent it. It's in our human nature to act like animals. I'd loosely agree that crimes of 'neccessity' can possibly be prevented, but crimes of 'passion', and crimes committed by the mentally ill are impossible. How do you prevent someone going on a gun-toting rampage 'cos he's bird has dumped him? How would you know that he'd react like that?

The best example I can give is Stuart Harling who murdered that nurse in Romford. He stabbed her 70-odd times. I went to secondary school with this kid, and was in his class for years. He was always a quiet person who never showed any form of rage/anger and tbh you'd never have thought he would be capable of it, yet he showed that it doesn't matter what kind of person you are, we're all capable of doing some ****ed-up things. Infact in court, when the judge sentenced him, Harling said "when I get out i'll do it again". That's why the judge branded him "Britain's most dangerous teenager". He obviously had mental problames, which he developed after he left school, but unless you 'police' everyone with a psychiatric assessment every week/month, then it's impossible to tell if they will go mad.

 

[Jack The Flag]

Re read what i have said im not backing him

Okay but at the end of the day, he shot 3 people. He deserved to die, The police gave him a chance and it was 6hours of a chance! Bet they were glad when he finally done it

 

[MK Shrimper]

Okay but at the end of the day, he shot 3 people. He deserved to die, The police gave him a chance and it was 6hours of a chance! Bet they were glad when he finally done it

Seeing as police negotiators where there for over 6 hours trying to talk him down, I wouldn't have thought so.

 

[Jack The Flag]

Seeing as police negotiators where there for over 6 hours trying to talk him down, I wouldn't have thought so.

At the end of the day, he shot people so ...

 

[Jack The Flag]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tyne/10597960.stm

 

[osymandus]

You'll never prevent it. It's in our human nature to act like animals. I'd loosely agree that crimes of 'neccessity' can possibly be prevented, but crimes of 'passion', and crimes committed by the mentally ill are impossible. How do you prevent someone going on a gun-toting rampage 'cos he's bird has dumped him? How would you know that he'd react like that?

The best example I can give is Stuart Harling who murdered that nurse in Romford. He stabbed her 70-odd times. I went to secondary school with this kid, and was in his class for years. He was always a quiet person who never showed any form of rage/anger and tbh you'd never have thought he would be capable of it, yet he showed that it doesn't matter what kind of person you are, we're all capable of doing some ****ed-up things. Infact in court, when the judge sentenced him, Harling said "when I get out i'll do it again". That's why the judge branded him "Britain's most dangerous teenager". He obviously had mental problames, which he developed after he left school, but unless you 'police' everyone with a psychiatric assessment every week/month, then it's impossible to tell if they will go mad.

You've said it there "quiet kid never showed any signs of anger" , that isnt a norm , people get annoyed even over tiny things or huff or grr or react . Those that don't it stay's inside, builds up hated , paranoia , loss of control , feelings of low self esteem , never addressed it explodes (in this case 70 times (if some one who though about it wanted you dead they do it in 1 or 2)) . Ill agree yo ucan never totally prevent it but it can recognised and in some cases helped .

 

[osymandus]

ALso you can never police mental health . If there was less stigma attached to it people would of their own accourd (in teh same way yo should visit your GP at least once a year for a physical ) do so .

 

[davewebbsbrain]

Morning Chaps!

Is it not possible that this Moat chap topped himself after he found out that Gazza was going to have a word?
Maybe the thought of a rambling, incoherent alchy, slurring, gurning and dribbling all over him was the final straw?

Sting likes to try and save the planet and he's a Geordie. Where the **** was he in all of this, the ****ing lazy ****?
Same goes for Chris Rea.

Kind Regards

Apparently, Chris Rea did try to get there but he got stuck on the Road to Hell.

 

[Pubey]

Apparently, Chris Rea did try to get there but he got stuck on the Road to Hell.

and apparently Sting wasn't too keen as he doesn't have much time for The Police any more.

 

[Napster]

geordie chris was still manning the decks at the spread.

 

[canveyshrimper]

and apparently Sting wasn't too keen as he doesn't have much time for The Police any more.

He still could have found time to send hin a Message in a Bottle.

 

[please delete my account]

He still could have found time to send hin a Message in a Bottle.

That's two threads ruined with terrible song related puns. Excellent work, chap.

Kind Regards

 

[GBJ]

You've said it there "quiet kid never showed any signs of anger" , that isnt a norm , people get annoyed even over tiny things or huff or grr or react . Those that don't it stay's inside, builds up hated , paranoia , loss of control , feelings of low self esteem , never addressed it explodes (in this case 70 times (if some one who though about it wanted you dead they do it in 1 or 2)) . Ill agree yo ucan never totally prevent it but it can recognised and in some cases helped .

Again, without actually making it law, where everyone has to have psychiatric evaluations/assessments every X weeks/months, I don't think you'll ever be able to suss these people out. The only other way you'll get a 'heads-up' on a nutcase, is if someone close i.e. family/friends get an incling that they might be on the verge of losing it, and decides to report it to the correct people.

In the Moat case, the way I understand it, he flipped out 'cos he was dumped by his bird. I will admit I don't know a great deal about his background, whether he already had mental problems etc, but it seems to me just like a man pushed over the edge after being rejected. And that, you simply cannot predict or prevent. For arguements sake, if the OB had of taken him alive, how would top psychologists analyse this specific case? Birds shouldn't break up with their blokes? How can the top bods differentiate between guys who react sanely and who grab a shotgun? Similarly, how can you tell between quiet 'loner' people who are just shy/unsocial, and the one's who want to recreate Grand Theft Auto?

Lastly, prison rehabilitation is a load of bollocks. I know several people who've been inside, and came out even worse. The reason why? The law is very soft and prison is like a holiday camp (infact i'd go as far as saying Butlins is worse than prison) People don't fear prison anymore, and why would they when they get an Xbox, TV, top clobber etc. all for free.

 

[MK Shrimper]

Lastly, prison rehabilitation is a load of bollocks. I know several people who've been inside, and came out even worse. The reason why? The law is very soft and prison is like a holiday camp (infact i'd go as far as saying Butlins is worse than prison) People don't fear prison anymore, and why would they when they get an Xbox, TV, top clobber etc. all for free.

I, and the vast majority of people on here certainly would. You can have all the "top clobber" in the world, but to be frank I'd rather have my freedom and be close to my family and not have the constant fear being bummed in the showers by Mr. Big.