Back to basics: team selection and formation

[Pubey]

Let’s look at September and our 4 wins out of 4.

We scored 7 goals, kept 3 clean sheets and 3 of the matches were against teams currently in the top half of the table.

Southend 2 – Portsmouth 0
Scorers: BBBC and Shaq from the bench

Team (433/451):
Bentley

White
Thompson
Prosser
Williams

Leonard
Deegan
Payne

Hurst
Corr
Weston

Subs:
Hurst – Worrall
Atkinson – Payne
Coulthirst – Weston

Cheltenham 0 – Southend 1
Scorers: Clifford from the bench

Team (433/451):
Bentley

White
Thompson
Prosser
Williams

Leonard
Deegan
Payne

Hurst
Coulthirst
Weston

Changes to team: Corr out injured

Subs:
Leonard – Clifford (injury)
Coulthirst – Barnard
Payne - Atkinson

York 2 – Southend 3
Scorers: Weston, Hurst, Payne

Team (433/451):
Bentley

White
Thompson
Prosser
Williams

Clifford
Deegan
Payne

Hurst
Coulthirst
Weston

Changes to team: Leonard out injured

Subs:
Coulthirst – Worrall
Clifford – Atkinson
Payne – Ibenfeldt

Southend 1 – Shrewbury 0
Scorers: Coulthirst

Team (433/451):
Bentley
White
Thompson
Prosser
Williams

Clifford
Deegan
Payne

Hurst
Coulthirst
Weston

Changes to team: n/a

Subs:
Hurst – Atkinson
Payne - Corr
Weston - Bolger

Lessons?
- Consistent back 5
- Consistent use of a fairly fluid formation (433, 451)
- Subs having an impact
- Goals from all strikers and some midfielders
- Players playing even though going through patches of poor form (Leonard, Hurst?)
- Players only dropped through injury
- 3 times we took the lead and won and kept a clean sheet
- Before the run, we drew against Oxford and made several changes after that (Atkinson and Clifford dropped for Hurst and Corr. Coker injured).

Best XI?:
Bentley

White
Thompson
Prosser
Williams

Deegan
??
Payne

Weston
???
Hurst

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

Brilliant. Hope Phil Brown see's this. Might help him make his mind up. Also shows we do better when not playing square pegs in round holes.

 

[Pubey]

Brilliant. Hope Phil Brown see's this. Might help him make his mind up. Also shows we do better when not playing square pegs in round holes.

Yep think that's a very fair comment and observation as well.

 

[Jam_Man]

Personally there has been too much talk and emphasis on formations.

We have heard for weeks about how we need to play 442 or 352 and that will solve our problems. I said all along changing formation wasn't a magic wand and that's been shown to be the case. People want there to be a simple solution or problem to blame, but its just not that simple.

Phil himself said a while back tactics don't win or lose games and I agree to an extent, although I do think some formations bring out the best in some individuals.

Just like last year there is no easy answer to turning our form around, we ended up playing the same formation and getting the results we couldn't in our slump. I'm hoping that as per then we have a spark that sets us on our way, needs to be soon though...

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

Jam, Pubey has just put one of the best threads ever on here. It's all there in black and white. He has put the nucleus of the team that did the best this season with some stats thrown in. Surely even you can see that it tells a story of what is best for the players we have to get some much needed wins.

 

[EastStandBlue]

I think the thing to take from that is the midfield barely changes. Deegan and Payne are ever presents, and Clifford only deputises for Leonard because of his injury while Weston and Hurst play in every game to add width. Circle pegs in circle holes. Nobody's played out of position or occupies a role unfamiliar to them.

I'm not advocating excluding the likes of Timlin from the team, but games are won and lost in midfield and changing that every week completely prevents any sort of balance or familiarity from forming.

 

[Jam_Man]

Jam, Pubey has just put one of the best threads ever on here. It's all there in black and white. He has put the nucleus of the team that did the best this season with some stats thrown in. Surely even you can see that it tells a story of what is best for the players we have to get some much needed wins.

Its a good thread, and good food for thought, but even if its in black and white it still doesn't say a lot.

Otherwise you might as well say we won with 'such and such' team using x formation so if we just play the same team every game we will win ever game.

We saw last season we couldn't buy a win for months then shot to the top of the form guide with the same players and formations as before.

Sometimes teams go into bad form, sometimes it just takes a spark to get the same team back in form. Its that confidence and self belief we are lacking that you cant put into black and white.

I think the thing to take from that is the midfield barely changes. Deegan and Payne are ever presents, and Clifford only deputises for Leonard because of his injury while Weston and Hurst play in every game to add width. Circle pegs in circle holes. Nobody's played out of position or occupies a role unfamiliar to them.

I'm not advocating excluding the likes of Timlin from the team, but games are won and lost in midfield and changing that every week completely prevents any sort of balance or familiarity from forming.

Certainly advocate a stable balanced side, but how many people have complained over the past few weeks that Phil isn't making changes and has buried his head in the sand?

The one thing I think goes without saying is not playing players out of position, that is a big no no for me, especially when confidence in the team is low.

 

[EastStandBlue]

Its a good thread, and good food for thought, but even if its in black and white it still doesn't say a lot.

Otherwise you might as well say we won with 'such and such' team using x formation so if we just play the same team every game we will win ever game.

We saw last season we couldn't buy a win for months then shot to the top of the form guide with the same players and formations as before.

Sometimes teams go into bad form, sometimes it just takes a spark to get the same team back in form. Its that confidence and self belief we are lacking that you cant put into black and white.

Aye, it's almost as if allowing something to settle rather than constantly tinkering with it is a tried and trusted, successful approach to management.

 

[Drobbo]

Very good breakdown, however I don't think it goes far enough to provide a real analysis. To do this you would need to compare formations etc to our not so successful games. For example this shows that Shaq scores once in every two games and Weston once in every four.

 

[Jam_Man]

It also says you have to play Hurst and Weston who were in every winning game, and have been poor all season.

 

[shrimperjon]

It also suggests that Weston is part of the winning formula and he has been pretty shocking for the most part this season. Its a good analysis, but not sure it presents a solution to the problem.

 

[Pubey]

It also suggests that Weston is part of the winning formula and he has been pretty shocking for the most part this season. Its a good analysis, but not sure it presents a solution to the problem.

So why were we winning games with Weston playing? He might have appeared shocking but he must have been doing something beneficial to the team, even if it's not at all obvious? Weston played a lot in L1 last season so I don't buy the idea that he's a **** player.

I'm not trying to say that this in any way solves anything, it was a run of 4 games and there's lots to also consider. As JamMan says, our bad run last year was ended with a TV game and the Loza-effect which kick started things.

What I do think is clear though, is that we need to have some element of stability in the squad that we select, and that I do think that 451/433 gets the best out of our squad and is probably the most effective formation in the league.

I like Timlin, Clifford and Leonard, however at least 1 of them should IMO be disappointed at being on the bench.

 

[Jam_Man]

So why were we winning games with Weston playing? He might have appeared shocking but he must have been doing something beneficial to the team, even if it's not at all obvious? Weston played a lot in L1 last season so I don't buy the idea that he's a **** player..

Because football isn't simple, and results don't rest solely on one player being in or out of the side.

Not saying he wasn't contributing to the result, but its too simplistic to say, we were winning therefore Weston needs to play. He was also in the team when we were losing. Then again so was Bentley, so maybe we should drop Bentley?

Its a funny old game, and a complex one.

 

[Pubey]

Because football isn't simple, and results don't rest solely on one player being in or out of the side.

Not saying he wasn't contributing to the result, but its too simplistic to say, we were winning therefore Weston needs to play. He was also in the team when we were losing. Then again so was Bentley, so maybe we should drop Bentley?

Its a funny old game, and a complex one.

I'm definitely not trying to boil it down to it being that simple. Weston was playing and we were winning and winning well. That's a fact and I'm not trying to infer anything more than say that if we want to base our current team on the formula that did us well in Sept, then we probably want to be playing him.

People don't seem to like him Weston and he has been dropped, but seeing as Brown seems to be going around in circles, and doesn't have an idea about his best team or formation, it made sense to highlight that when we won 4 in September that we did so with a consistent side and formation which included players like Weston, and omitted players (through injury) like Leonard, Corr etc.

Personaly, my team for Sat would be as above, with a midfield 3 of Deegan, Timlin, Payne, and an attacking 3 of Weston, Hurst and Corr.

Brown tinkered to a 442 which involved an untried left side of Williams and Atkinson, and an untried right side of Worrall and Leonard. Too many players both unfamiliar and and out of position. Let's look to go back to something with more familiarity and Worrall, Barnard, , Shaq, Clifford and Leonard will need to continue to wait.

 

[Gridelet's contact lens]

How about another worrying statistic to bring up. We have played 17 first team league and cup games so far this season and we have only 'won' both halves of the match once, at home to Stevenage. I am now questioning the mental and physical stamina of the squad, as it seems that we are very unlikely to outscore the opposition in both halves of the match.

 

[Clinton Baptiste]

Clifford and Paynes recent omissions have been baffling. More worrying is Brown saying he played White because Burys two strikers were pacy?? I dont see White as quick but moreover PB doesnt think two defenders he signed from the championship (one he called a 'statement of intent') can deal with 2 League 2 strikers?? Hardly a vote of confidence in Bolger and Thompson!

 

[Medway Blue]

I'm definitely not trying to boil it down to it being that simple. Weston was playing and we were winning and winning well. That's a fact and I'm not trying to infer anything more than say that if we want to base our current team on the formula that did us well in Sept, then we probably want to be playing him.

People don't seem to like him Weston and he has been dropped, but seeing as Brown seems to be going around in circles, and doesn't have an idea about his best team or formation, it made sense to highlight that when we won 4 in September that we did so with a consistent side and formation which included players like Weston, and omitted players (through injury) like Leonard, Corr etc.

Personaly, my team for Sat would be as above, with a midfield 3 of Deegan, Timlin, Payne, and an attacking 3 of Weston, Hurst and Corr.

Brown tinkered to a 442 which involved an untried left side of Williams and Atkinson, and an untried right side of Worrall and Leonard. Too many players both unfamiliar and and out of position. Let's look to go back to something with more familiarity and Worrall, Barnard, , Shaq, Clifford and Leonard will need to continue to wait.

Winning well? Really? I'm not to sure that I've seen us win well this season. Maybe against York, but the rest were poor performances where you could see the kind of game we were trying to play and knew it was only a matter of time until we got sussed out. And sussed out they were. The Portsmouth and Shrewsbury games especially, they were wins but both performances made me come away feeling a little downbeat.

I don't think 451 is the way forward at all. I hate it, it never looks like a 433 to me at any point. It is one man up front and whoever it is is almost always isolated. We put more pressure on the opposition's back line, have more bodies in the box to get on the end of crosses, and the ball spends more time in the final third (rather than coming straight back) when we have 2 clear strikers on the pitch and 2 wide midfielders getting crosses in. Not 1 striker and 2 wingers who for the most part stick out wide.

 

[leeblue]

I still say tge current sqad is not good enough. Need 3 signings down spine of the team and a winger who can beat his man and finish with quality balls into the box.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

I still say tge current sqad is not good enough. Need 3 signings down spine of the team and a winger who can beat his man and finish with quality balls into the box.

I still say your typing is not good enough. :winking:

 

[geoffmundo]

Also two of those games we won against 10 men (Shrewsbury and Cheltenham) and only by one goal!