Ref Watch ..... Bristol Rovers (H)

[Firestorm]

Mick, do you think that the issues with referees being abused at grass roots level for some years now, has lead to the apparent lack of quality refs at the top level now ?

 

[Mick]

Mick, do you think that the issues with referees being abused at grass roots level for some years now, has lead to the apparent lack of quality refs at the top level now ?

Not especially. In fact it's more the other way round.

I think the lack of respect shown by top players to officials, the acceptance of this poor behaviour by officials and the authorities failure to support referees in dealing with this situation has contributed massively to the poor behaviour and abuse at grassroots level. The FA's "Respect" campaign targeting the lower echelons of football has not helped. The only way this problem can be solved is top down.

 

[Napster]

Not especially. In fact it's more the other way round.

I think the lack of respect shown by top players to officials, the acceptance of this poor behaviour by officials and the authorities failure to support referees in dealing with this situation has contributed massively to the poor behaviour and abuse at grassroots level. The FA's "Respect" campaign targeting the lower echelons of football has not helped. The only way this problem can be solved is top down.

completely agree.

 

[Uncle Leo]

Not especially. In fact it's more the other way round.

I think the lack of respect shown by top players to officials, the acceptance of this poor behaviour by officials and the authorities failure to support referees in dealing with this situation has contributed massively to the poor behaviour and abuse at grassroots level. The FA's "Respect" campaign targeting the lower echelons of football has not helped. The only way this problem can be solved is top down.

Agreed. Slapping a gagging order on Mark Hughes would be a good start. It's never his fault...

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

Agreed. Slapping a gagging order on Mark Hughes would be a good start. It's never his fault...

It is a bit late for that, Hughes need a few slaps 30 years ago before his ego got so over enlarged. Odious man.

Most grass roots games are the same as they have been for 40 years but the example of players on tv has not helped: and the FA do seem to be a largely self serving and almost masonic/nepotistic organisation unable and unwilling to change.

 

[Fish]

Mick, do you think that the issues with referees being abused at grass roots level for some years now, has lead to the apparent lack of quality refs at the top level now ?

In all sports, you develop officials from the bottom up. If officials are getting abused at grass roots level (and I can tell you first hand, they do), then you will inevitably get potentially very good officials giving up before they've started. I personally know of some who refuse to develop themselves further to officiate at higher levels precisely because they don't want to take the potential abuse that might come with it. I also know of some who have given up from half way up the chain because of not wanting to have to deal with dissent whilst they are effectively giving up their free time as volunteers to enable others to pursue their hobby.

And that means that the referees that do make it to the top, are doing so from a smaller pool. Law of averages dictates that if fewer people are coming through to referee in the first place, standards all the way through the system will drop.

 

[Fish]

Most grass roots games are the same as they have been for 40 years but the example of players on tv has not helped: and the FA do seem to be a largely self serving and almost masonic/nepotistic organisation unable and unwilling to change.

Agreed. Referees need more tools to be able to deal with players: sin bins are desperately needed and would benefit all levels of the game immensely by giving a more nuanced control tool which referees could use to diffuse confrontation and dissent more easily.

 

[Lord Football]

In all sports, you develop officials from the bottom up. If officials are getting abused at grass roots level (and I can tell you first hand, they do), then you will inevitably get potentially very good officials giving up before they've started. I personally know of some who refuse to develop themselves further to officiate at higher levels precisely because they don't want to take the potential abuse that might come with it. I also know of some who have given up from half way up the chain because of not wanting to have to deal with dissent whilst they are effectively giving up their free time as volunteers to enable others to pursue their hobby.

And that means that the referees that do make it to the top, are doing so from a smaller pool. Law of averages dictates that if fewer people are coming through to referee in the first place, standards all the way through the system will drop.

With some first hand experience myself.

On the parks you are essentially on your own. Everyone starts on the parks. You don't have qualified assistant (and in some cases, no assistants at all), you have no protection whatsoever. There are some real horror stories out there raning from physical assaults, urinating in kit bags, spitting, threats from touchlines, phone calls after games, cars being damaged in car parks, refs parents being verbally abused at games etc etc. (and none of that was a kids football, which is a whole different circle of hell).

Once you get off the parks, you don't get that. You don't get the physical stuff, you don't get the threats of violence. Such cases are extremely rare. Even if someone wants to have a go, there is plenty of protection even at Essex Senior League level.

Personally, I never found dissent at the semi pro level a problem. Yeah, it was competitive, yes you had to deal with players and benches, yes you sometimes had to listen to some unpleasentness from the crowd and yes occassionally you'd get someone you needed to get rid off because they wont shut up. But an experienced referee should be able to deal with that - and yes, its not for everyone.

Part of the problem is, and its extremely prevelent in Essex, is that the County FA move young referees up the ladder far too quickly. When I started it was rare to get promoted in your first season, and even rarer to get two in your first two years. Nowdays, you can end up in the middle of an Essex Senior League after two years reffing, never having actually reffed a Saturday game and with no people skills.

This results in referees who have bags of potential, but absolutely no meaningful experience being chucked into the deep end without any water wings. Most eventually. But what drives the Essex FA is to have a top level referee (we've not had one since Andy D'Urso), and their policy is get young refs into a position where they could get to that level if they've got what it takes.

 

[Lord Football]

Agreed. Referees need more tools to be able to deal with players: sin bins are desperately needed and would benefit all levels of the game immensely by giving a more nuanced control tool which referees could use to diffuse confrontation and dissent more easily.

I'd hate to try to manage a sin bin in local park football without neutral assistants.

 

[Mick]

I'd hate to try to manage a sin bin in local park football without neutral assistants.

A sin bin, rolling subs and no Assistants. Sounds perfect !

Anyone who advocates a sin bin at parks level (and that includes people at the FA) have no idea of the challenges faced by grassroots referees at the lowest levels.

 

[Danno]

A sin bin, rolling subs and no Assistants. Sounds perfect !

Anyone who advocates a sin bin at parks level (and that includes people at the FA) have no idea of the challenges faced by grassroots referees at the lowest levels.

Would it be feasible if the old fashioned hockey method was used whereby the sin binned player had to stand behind the goal, which I believe should be kept clear, away from the rest of the subs/manager and any spectators?

 

[Fish]

A sin bin, rolling subs and no Assistants. Sounds perfect !

Anyone who advocates a sin bin at parks level (and that includes people at the FA) have no idea of the challenges faced by grassroots referees at the lowest levels.

Parks level is still organised clubs, just clubs without their own ground, right? What you describe (sin bin, rolling subs, no technical assistants on the sideline) I and hundreds of others do week in, week out in hockey in exactly the same circumstances. Why can't football do it?

 

[Fish]

Would it be feasible if the old fashioned hockey method was used whereby the sin binned player had to stand behind the goal, which I believe should be kept clear, away from the rest of the subs/manager and any spectators?

We certainly don't put them behind the goal anymore, though this solution could work for football, because footballs are far less dangerous than hockey balls! The essence of being away from the "bench" is exactly the spirit of it. The only exceptions are when the player in question is a minor; then they have to be on the bench because they have to be supervised at all times.

 

[Firestorm]

Not especially. In fact it's more the other way round.

I think the lack of respect shown by top players to officials, the acceptance of this poor behaviour by officials and the authorities failure to support referees in dealing with this situation has contributed massively to the poor behaviour and abuse at grassroots level. The FA's "Respect" campaign targeting the lower echelons of football has not helped. The only way this problem can be solved is top down.

I totally agree that its the actions of the pro's which influence the behaviour at local or junior level .

Just a thought but does having to have that extra official, put a strain on the refereeing pool ?

 

[Mick]

Parks level is still organised clubs, just clubs without their own ground, right? What you describe (sin bin, rolling subs, no technical assistants on the sideline) I and hundreds of others do week in, week out in hockey in exactly the same circumstances. Why can't football do it?

No, it's mainly disorganised clubs these days !

 

[FD Shrimper]

And these clubs, organised or disorganised, are getting fewer and fewer.