Cameron and Europe

[Tangled up in Blue]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25114890

The Tories are still being described as "the nasty party", I see.

 

[Uncle Leo]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25114890

The Tories are still being described as "the nasty party", I see.

No. It's the whole country that's getting branded 'nasty'.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

No. It's the whole country that's getting branded 'nasty'.

Right you are.:winking:

 

[Uncle Leo]

Right you are.:winking:

I'm usually happy to be on the opposite side of an argument to a European commissioner.

 

[Benfleet A1]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25114890

The Tories are still being described as "the nasty party", I see.

So you would prefer open borders and unllimited benefits for all I presume.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

So you would prefer open borders and unllimited benefits for all I presume.

The benefits argument is a non-issue.Every country is free to decide this,as long as it doesn't discriminate against other nationalities in the EU and is not contrary to existing EU legislation.

Open borders or the free movement of labour throughout EU countries is sacrosanct in EU law (GB signed up for it) and is non-negociable.

 

[Benfleet A1]

The benefits argument is a non-issue.Every country is free to decide this,as long as it doesn't discriminate against other nationalities in the EU and is not contrary to existing EU legislation.

Open borders or the free movement of labour throughout EU countries is sacrosanct in EU law (GB signed up for it) and is non-negociable.

And there you have it, Free Movement of Labour but if there isn't any jobs available and they can't support themselves then who are they going to turn to? Try moving to Austrailia without being able to support yourself and see how you get on.

 

[Jam_Man]

And there you have it, Free Movement of Labour but if there isn't any jobs available and they can't support themselves then who are they going to turn to? Try moving to Austrailia without being able to support yourself and see how you get on.

Agree 100%

No issue with people moving countries but as one of the more affluent countries in the EU we are a beacon for others to flock to, not just for benefits but because of general quality of living.

People should be able to demonstrate they bring work skills and have a job to go to before being allowed to come here.

Of course when hundreds of thousands of Brits start emigrating to Poland and Lithunia I guess it wont be such a problem....

 

[Benfleet A1]

Being told whats right and wrong by an unelected EU Commissioner [who attended the Karl Marx University, surprise, surprise] has never sat well with me. But hey, we are much better off being a member of the most corrupt organisation in the world.

 

[londonblue]

Being told whats right and wrong by an unelected EU Commissioner [who attended the Karl Marx University, surprise, surprise] has never sat well with me. But hey, we are much better off being a member of the most corrupt organisation in the world.

Let's be sensible about this. It doesn't matter how corrupt they are, without being a member we wouldn't be able to play at the world cup...you are talking about FIFA aren't you?

:winking:

 

[Benfleet A1]

Let's be sensible about this. It doesn't matter how corrupt they are, without being a member we wouldn't be able to play at the world cup...you are talking about FIFA aren't you?

:winking:

Sort of, except the EU are more blatant about it.

 

[Neil_F]

The benefits argument is a non-issue.Every country is free to decide this,as long as it doesn't discriminate against other nationalities in the EU and is not contrary to existing EU legislation.

I found this quite funny. You are saying that the UK has no legal jurisdiction to apply immigration policy for EEA nationals but other than that the government is free to decide. There is nothing to decide if the EU laws prevail, Barna. It is rather like saying the inmates of Guantanemo are confined to their cells for 24 hours a day but other than that they can go where they like.

the comment is fairly typical for an EU Commissioner. I don't know what it is about them, but they seem to think that the public are a dribbling mass of thick non-entities, incapable of forming their own opinion but rather swallowing whole the "lies of the tabloid press."

have you not stopped to wonder for just a second, Barna, that mass immigration is something that transforms a community and therefore entire lives? Were these people ever consulted on whether they supported it? Of course they were not, instead it has been forced through by a patronising undemocratic elite. You will no doubt argue that the British people had a choice when they signed up to the EU. Maybe so, but I wasn't born then and no one has ever been given a say on EU enlargement in this country.

I say this as someone who is actually in favour of freedom of movement in the EU. I'm rather more conscious though that those that disagree are probably more affected than it by I am and they are entirely right to have an express an opinion without being called names or patronised by the European Commission.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I found this quite funny. You are saying that the UK has no legal jurisdiction to apply immigration policy for EEA nationals but other than that the government is free to decide.

What I said was quite clear.
The UK (like other EU membere states) has relative freedom of manoeuvre (within certain limits) to decide its own benefits policy (as long as this does not discriminate against other EU nationals, nor conflict with existing EU legislation).
However, neitherthe UK (nor any other EU member state) has any power whatsover to interfere with the free movement of labour between full EU member states.

have you not stopped to wonder for just a second, Barna, that mass immigration is something that transforms a community and therefore entire lives? Were these people ever consulted on whether they supported it? Of course they were not, instead it has been forced through by a patronising undemocratic elite. You will no doubt argue that the British people had a choice when they signed up to the EU. Maybe so, but I wasn't born then and no one has ever been given a say on EU enlargement in this country

.

Having seen the Bulgarian Ambassador on the Daily Politcs at lunchtime,I'm fairly confident (as is he), that there won't be any significant mass immigration in or after January 2014, to the UK, by Romanians or Bulgarians.After all,both nationalities have been able to work here on a contract basis or self-employed for some years now.

As far as voting for the EU is concerned, it so happens I voted against membership in 1975 but have changed my mind since.

 

[Benfleet A1]

Having seen the Bulgarian Ambassador on the Daily Politcs at lunchtime,I'm fairly confident (as is he), that there won't be any significant mass immigration in or after January 2014, to the UK, by Rumanians or Bulgarians.After all,both nationalities have been able to work here on a contract basis or self-employed for some years now.

How can you possibly make that prediction? The startled panda and his mates predicted only [only :hilarious:] 15000 migrants per year when restrictions were last opened up to Eastern Europe. Almost a million turned up over a decade period. No-one knows how many returned home. These clowns in charge now wont even make a prediction as to how many we can expect although Migration Watch who are pretty good at this sort of thing think we can expect around the 20000 mark in the first two months, which is a few more than the guesstimate the Bulgarian Ambassador has made.

What changed your mind about EU membership by the way, apart from The Labour Party shifting it's position of course.

 

[Neil_F]

Having seen the Bulgarian Ambassador on the Daily Politcs at lunchtime,I'm fairly confident (as is he), that there won't be any significant mass immigration in or after January 2014, to the UK, by Rumanians or Bulgarians.

how are you defining "significant"? Let us say in the first 12 months, how many do you think there will be and how much will you stake? I will most likely take the bet.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

Having seen the Bulgarian Ambassador on the Daily Politcs at lunchtime,I'm fairly confident (as is he), that there won't be any significant mass immigration in or after January 2014, to the UK, by Rumanians or Bulgarians.After all,both nationalities have been able to work here on a contract basis or self-employed for some years now.

As far as voting for the EU is concerned, it so happens I voted against membership in 1975 but have changed my mind since.

You believe a Bulgarian politician? he may be an honest man but he isn't going to be stupid and say anything other than the least "worse" possibility is he? It is important to think about the possible answers when a question is asked & also to think what might be "sensible" for a politician to respond to.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

How can you possibly make that prediction? The startled panda and his mates predicted only [only :hilarious:] 15000 migrants per year when restrictions were last opened up to Eastern Europe. Almost a million turned up over a decade period. No-one knows how many returned home. These clowns in charge now wont even make a prediction as to how many we can expect although Migration Watch who are pretty good at this sort of thing think we can expect around the 20000 mark in the first two months, which is a few more than the guesstimate the Bulgarian Ambassador has made.

As I'm sure you're aware, at the time you're speaking about, only the UK,Eire and Denmark opened their borders freely to immigrants from Poland and the new East European states.The other EU full member states did not allow accession to their labour markets until five years later.The present situation is very different.Romanians and Bulgarians are free to access the whole of the EU labour market from January 2014.
However,Romanians and Bugarians have much closer cultural and linguistic ties with other EU states rather than the UK

In retrospect,the Labour Govenment clearly made a mistake in 2004.But this has to be seen in the context of the booming economy and unfilled vacancies in the labour market at the time.

On Newsnight last night, the Bulgarian Ambasador gave a figure of 10,000 Bulgarian immigrants in each of the next five years.Rather than a "guessestimate", these figures are based on extrapolations of current trends.
The Government has official figures but refuses to release them.Migration Watch is hardly an unbiased observer.

What changed your mind about EU membership by the way, apart from The Labour Party shifting it's position of course.

My change of mind about the EU has nothing to do with the Labour party.It comes from my own personal and postive experience of working and living in France and Spain over the last 35 years.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

You believe a Bulgarian politician? he may be an honest man but he isn't going to be stupid and say anything other than the least "worse" possibility is he? It is important to think about the possible answers when a question is asked & also to think what might be "sensible" for a politician to respond to.

He's not a politician.He's a diplomat.

 

[Uncle Leo]

He's not a politician.He's a diplomat.

Now maybe, but he was an MEP so he's certainly got some political pedigree.

Incidentally, is anyone particularly worried if Britain is perceived as 'nasty' by some other European countries? I'm not too fussed about what they think; our government should be doing what's right for us, not worrying about image.

PS - There is only one 'r' in Guevara.

 

[superblue24]

Can I just be the first to say that I don't want more immigrants in our country, so I don't care how we're perceived.

I recently moved to Ipswich and the number of Eastern Europeans in the town is breathtaking. They are rude, ignorant and seem unable to acknowledge any appreciation of the fact they have moved from their slum to an affluent country, this is characterized by regular spitting, shouting and general filthy behaviour. Why do I want scum like that in my town, or country for that reason? It haunts me that in 20 years time, my daughter could be "hit on" by the offspring of some of these disgusting undesirables.