Gaza

[Berrichonne shrimper]

Ok leftys and rightys and all those in the middle and of course those of you like me are A political lets come up with ideas based on your politics to sort out the trouble in Gaza.
As it stands the Isrealies are about 200 ahead on the body count but what would you do to help sort out the problem.
I would like to see a UN force enter the area and part of isreal and set up a buffer zone but for reasons of history i think i would exclude any German forces.
Any ideas?

 

[MK Shrimper]

It's a mess - and the media seems to be anti-Israel and pro-Palestine, this despite one is a liberal democratic country and the other.....isn't.

One step would be to give Palestine defined borders and the status of a true country that Israel must not encroach upon - their own Government needs to crack down on the radicals who think it's their god-given right to build where-ever the hell they want.

....but it'll just drag on for ever....

 

[londonblue]

Ok leftys and rightys and all those in the middle and of course those of you like me are A political lets come up with ideas based on your politics to sort out the trouble in Gaza.
As it stands the Isrealies are about 200 ahead on the body count but what would you do to help sort out the problem.
I would like to see a UN force enter the area and part of isreal and set up a buffer zone but for reasons of history i think i would exclude any German forces.
Any ideas?

It'd have to be one hell of a big buffer zone. Rockets from Gaza reach as far as Tel Aviv, which is about 53 miles.

I think we need a better plan.

 

[londonblue]

It's a mess - and the media seems to be anti-Israel and pro-Palestine, this despite one is a liberal democratic country and the other.....isn't.

One step would be to give Palestine defined borders and the status of a true country that Israel must not encroach upon - their own Government needs to crack down on the radicals who think it's their god-given right to build where-ever the hell they want.

....but it'll just drag on for ever....

As far as I'm aware it does have defined borders. The issue is that it doesn't like them! Israel only encroaches when it feels the need (rightly or wrongly) to defend itself.

Again, we need a better plan.

(For clarity, I don't know what the better plan is...)

I agree with you on settlements, even though Israel would dispute their illegality. That is an interesting stand point because by so doing they are going against the opinion of the UN Security Council, the UN General Assembly, The International Committee of the Red Cross and the International Court of Justice. Given that, if it ever was tried in a court you'd have to say Israel will most likely lose! Most (not all) of the people that live in the settlements are religious zealots and scare the hell out of me. However they try and dress up their reasons, they never sound convincing. They are doing it purely (IMO) to cause problems.

(As an aside, this issue is also why I don't like proportional representation. They have this in Israel, and the country is pretty much 50:50 in terms of right and left. Therefore for any of the main parties to form a coalition they need the help of the much smaller parties, some of which end up with a disproportionately high level of power because if they don't get their way they pull out of the coalition, thus forcing a general election. If those parties happen to be very right wing religious parties not much will happen in terms of stopping settlements.)

However, I think a good start would also be for Hamas to do a number of things:

1. Stop spending all the aid money it receives from the US and EU on arms and actually build some infrastructure.
2. Stop broadcasting TV shows like this teaching hate to the next generation of palestinians.
3. Stop sending rockets over to Israel on a near constant basis. (We in this country only hear about them when Israel retaliates. Click here for a full list.)

Please also bear in mind that the sticking point for Mahmoud Abbas and the Palestinian National Authority (i.e. the West Bank) is that they want a two state solution that is at odds with Israel's two state solution. Israel want a Jewish state and a Palestinian state. Abbas wants a Palestinian state and a state of Israel that isn't Jewish and where Arabs also have the right of return. That seems a bit unfair to me.

Whatever the issues, this is not an easy one to deal with.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

....and we though Northern Ireland was a difficult problem! Sadly, I don't see Shrimper Zoners succeeding in finding a solution which has eluded the UN and major powers (with their vested interests) for decades.
A Jewish Maroccan friend said to me at the start of the nineties that a right-wing government in Israel was the best hope for establishing a peace agreement in the conflict. Well Perla, right-wing governments have come and gone in Israel and the blood continues to flow.
I really haven't read enough around the subject to be able to present an authorative view but there are certain basic tenets that underpin what beliefs I have and they don't differ much from what MK has said above.

1. The right to existence of the state of Israel.
2. The right of Palestinians to an established state.
3. The halt to the development of settlements on occupied land.

Really fear that we have missed the boat on this one. Although it may not have appeared so, wasn't it so much easier to deal with the PLO 30 years ago, corrupt though it allegedly was. Now things have got far more complicated with hezbollah, Hamas and of course the whole turmoil in the middle-east. Only when things settle down (and we may be in for a long haul) will Israel be able to see the composition of neighbours and near neighbours. Could it be said that the events in Syria and Iraq are concentrating the minds of the major powers (necessary to any Israeli/Palestine settlement) and for the moment the situation of Israel and Palestine is on the back boiler?
It's very sad to say that all I see is the situation rumbling on. In the quieter times the odd death of a palestinian or the injury of an Israeli will go unnoticed by the world but the 'calm' will be disturbed by the kind of violence we are now witnessing. During these times everyone will wring their hands, the UN will pass resolutions and we shall just have to wait until things return back to the depressing staus quo.

 

[Pubey]

If Israel stop blowing up kids playing football on the beach that would be a start

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

As someone who worked on a Kibuttz in Israel for three months (on the northern border with Lebanon) back in the mid-70's, I'd opt fot the creation of an independent Palestian state and make Jerusalem an international city.

Borders to be patrolled by UN troops if necessary.

 

[EastStandBlue]

If Israel stop blowing up kids playing football on the beach that would be a start

Aye. I tend to stay as far away as possible from any debate concerning Israel/Palestine/Gaza, but this a particularly heinous and despicable act that deserves far more universal condemnation than it's received so far.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

As someone who worked on a Kibuttz in Israel for three months (on the northern border with Lebanon) back in the mid-70's, I'd opt fot the creation of an independent Palestian state and make Jerusalem an international city.

Borders to be patrolled by UN troops if necessary.

I can't see much wrong with that.

 

[londonblue]

As someone who worked on a Kibuttz in Israel for three months (on the northern border with Lebanon) back in the mid-70's, I'd opt fot the creation of an independent Palestian state and make Jerusalem an international city.

Borders to be patrolled by UN troops if necessary.

I think that might just get you killed by both sides!

BTW: I love the way you use the fact that you spent 3 months on a kibbutz about 40 years ago as an attempt to show you have some kind of inside knowledge. I would argue that is irrelevant.

 

[londonblue]

If Israel stop blowing up kids playing football on the beach that would be a start

The way you have worded that implies to me that you think that was done on purpose. Assuming you're correct, do you know what will happen to the pilots that did that? Israel will charge and try them. If they're found guilty they will be imprisoned just like any other criminal.

Do you know what Hamas and the Palestinian authority do with their criminals, especially their suicide bombers? They pay a salary to their families and name streets and squares after them.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

UN have been on Golan Heights and Lebanon Border for many years and several of my Italian friends have served as part of the MONITORING mission. It was a thankless task and basically a reporting mechanism of the wrongs that all sides do with breaking any agreement.
I have my blue beret from missions in the Balkans and I can tell you that the circs in Gaza are far, far from those that would allow a UN Mission as Peacekeepers (as the name states there must be a peace accord to start with!).
There hasn't been peace in the region for over 2000 yrs and it is unlikely to happen any time soon!
it is along journey to any living side by side that the 4/5 factions involved must take and the first step is ceasing the rocket attack and air raids, then talking.
Any chance of lasting peace is in the hands and minds of the children and their mentors, if they are taught hate and distrust then we will all need to wait for either Armageddon amongst them or an enlightened future crop of children.

 

[Napster]

Invent a time machine and maybe not create Israel.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I think that might just get you killed by both sides!

BTW: I love the way you use the fact that you spent 3 months on a kibbutz about 40 years ago as an attempt to show you have some kind of inside knowledge. I would argue that is irrelevant.

I also went back to Israel twice afterwards to meet up with an Israeli girl that I'd fallen for.I'm sure that's irrelevant too, for you.

I'd argue that it gives me a little insight into what living in Israel is, or certainly was like, back in the day.

At least I know where all the major places are and what they're like.

The Golan Heights used to remind me of Leigh Cliffs, for example.

I'd also suggest it gives me a slightly different perspective on the Arab/Israeli conflict than the usual lefty,Israelis=bad,Arabs=good,scenario.

 

[londonblue]

I also went back to Israel twice afterwards to meet up with an Israeli girl that I'd fallen for.I'm sure that's irrelevant too, for you.

I'd argue that it gives me a little insight into what living in Israel is, or certainly was like, back in the day.

At least I know where all the major places are and what they're like.

The Golan Heights used to remind me of Leigh Cliffs, for example.

I'd also suggest it gives me a slightly different perspective on the Arab/Israeli conflict than the usual lefty,Israelis=bad,Arabs=good,scenario.

Yes it is, unless it was pretty recent, which I suspect not. As you say it might give a very small insight into what Israel was like back then, but as I pointed out, it was about 40 years ago. That was pretty much before I was born, and certainly before I was "aware". Israel, and I'm sure pretty much every other country has changed a huge amount in that time.

By all means have an opinion, and voice it, but let's not pretend it's based on anything tangible, or carries any more weight than any one else's opinion.

The fact that you liken to Golan Heights to Leigh cliffs shows to me that your memory is probably failing:

 

[EastStandBlue]

I also went back to Israel twice afterwards to meet up with an Israeli girl that I'd fallen for.I'm sure that's irrelevant too, for you.

**** me. Modern day Casanova, you. How on earth do you find the time to post on here between bedding girls on a global scale and doubling the Guardian's online traffic?

 

[Pubey]

The way you have worded that implies to me that you think that was done on purpose. Assuming you're correct, do you know what will happen to the pilots that did that? Israel will charge and try them. If they're found guilty they will be imprisoned just like any other criminal.

Do you know what Hamas and the Palestinian authority do with their criminals, especially their suicide bombers? They pay a salary to their families and name streets and squares after them.

I don't think I implied anything. It was a factual statement.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Aye. I tend to stay as far away as possible from any debate concerning Israel/Palestine/Gaza, but this a particularly heinous and despicable act that deserves far more universal condemnation than it's received so far.

You are right to be wary about entering in debate on this subject. Someone will no doubt point out that the present flare up of violence resulted from the abduction and murder of three Israeli teenagers, an equally heinous and despicable act and one that couldn't be classed, in any stretch of the imagination, as an accident/mistake. The perpetrators of the revenge murder of a Palestinian kid have IIRC have at least been arrested.........what kind of justice they will face remains to be seen.
In brief, signaling out any individual atrocities in this whole sorry, sad situation is frought with danger and likely to be countered with examples of equally barbarous acts from the other side.

 

[londonblue]

I don't think I implied anything. It was a factual statement.

To stop doing something (to me) implies that you started doing something, which implies that your starting was a deliberate act.

Either way, even if that was the case, you can rest assured Israel would treat the perpetrators as criminals, as opposed to the Palestinians who treat their criminals as heroes.

 

[londonblue]

You are right to be wary about entering in debate on this subject. Someone will no doubt point out that the present flare up of violence resulted from the abduction and murder of three Israeli teenagers, an equally heinous and despicable act and one that couldn't be classed, in any stretch of the imagination, as an accident/mistake. The perpetrators of the revenge murder of a Palestinian kid have IIRC have at least been arrested.........what kind of justice they will face remains to be seen.
In brief, signaling out any individual atrocities in this whole sorry, sad situation is frought with danger and likely to be countered with examples of equally barbarous acts from the other side.

Agreed, but I an certain it will be better justice than the people that murdered three Israeli kids, who have yet to be identified/arrested by the Palestinian authorities.