Jeremy Corbyn's Labour

[kaymac]

Yet we persist with Brexit.

I nearly choked on the irony of his 2nd paragraph.

...and the relevance of Brexit is....?

 

[Lord Football]

...and the relevance of Brexit is....?

Read Bilezibubz last post very carefully for a clue (in the 2nd paragraph)......

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Nowhere to the same extent, yah boo sucks to you too..:winking: Sad to say I doubt any country noted for their armaments industry is likely to cease operations when such massive sums of money are involved. In an ideal ‘war-less’ world there would be no need for such destructive implements....

Perhaps we should reset our economy then? Why not go Green?. After all, clearly, all those years of austerity since 2010 haven't worked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_economy

 

[kaymac]

Read Bilezibubz last post very carefully for a clue (in the 2nd paragraph)......

Nope nothing about Brexit there, but never mind, eh...

 

[kaymac]

Maybe a better idea to submit that thought to good ‘ol Jezza. Must be only a matter of time before he tries to tap into the green vote anyway.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Yet we persist with Brexit.

I nearly choked on the irony of his 2nd paragraph.

Irony based on your opinion, nothing more.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

I'm sure there have been "severe financial consequences" to the German economy too.:raspberry:

Have the Germans not compensated for this type of thing by shafting the Greek defense budget & also by massively under contributing to NATO?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Have the Germans not compensated for this type of thing by shafting the Greek defense budget & also by massively under contributing to NATO?

Don't tell me they're not one of the five nations (including the UK) who actually cough up their 2%? :unsure: :winking:

 

[blues exile]

The pathetic macho posturing by the UK, still harbouring illusions of its colonial past, is becoming ever more embarrassing. The arms industry contributes 1.4% of our export trade and accounts for 0.26% of our workforce. We can well afford to do without it and it pales by comparison with the losses the economy will suffer on Brexit. Those economic illiterates who think 'taking back control of our borders and our laws' will not result in catastrophe have no idea of the devastastation this will unleash.

 

[Bielzibubz]

The pathetic macho posturing by the UK, still harbouring illusions of its colonial past, is becoming ever more embarrassing. The arms industry contributes 1.4% of our export trade and accounts for 0.26% of our workforce. We can well afford to do without it and it pales by comparison with the losses the economy will suffer on Brexit. Those economic illiterates who think 'taking back control of our borders and our laws' will not result in catastrophe have no idea of the devastastation this will unleash.

55,000 UK jobs sustained by arms exports alone and that's not taking into account those of the 300,000 who make up the overall total employed in the defence industry that would have their jobs put in jeopardy through an arms export ban. Worth it is it?

I seem to remember the same hyperbole rhetoric being spouted in the days leading up to and immediately following the June referendum result and look what happened there. Nothing! Also, care to share why your condescending opinion carries more weight than one put forward by one of us poor economic illiterates? Just curious.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Maybe a better idea to submit that thought to good ‘ol Jezza. Must be only a matter of time before he tries to tap into the green vote anyway.

Given that the Greens lost half their votes between 2015 +2017,I think that the Green vote has already been tapped into thanks.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

The pathetic macho posturing by the UK, still harbouring illusions of its colonial past, is becoming ever more embarrassing. The arms industry contributes 1.4% of our export trade and accounts for 0.26% of our workforce. We can well afford to do without it and it pales by comparison with the losses the economy will suffer on Brexit. Those economic illiterates who think 'taking back control of our borders and our laws' will not result in catastrophe have no idea of the devastastation this will unleash.

55,000 UK jobs sustained by arms exports alone and that's not taking into account those of the 300,000 who make up the overall total employed in the defence industry that would have their jobs put in jeopardy through an arms export ban. Worth it is it?

I seem to remember the same hyperbole rhetoric being spouted in the days leading up to and immediately following the June referendum result and look what happened there. Nothing! Also, care to share why your condescending opinion carries more weight than one put forward by one of us poor economic illiterates? Just curious.

See blues exile's excellent post above.Meanwhile Friday's 100m quid "aid" deal with the Saudis has been rightly condemmed.https://www.theguardian.com/global-...ver-100m-aid-deal-between-uk-and-saudi-arabia

 

[blues exile]

55,000 UK jobs sustained by arms exports alone and that's not taking into account those of the 300,000 who make up the overall total employed in the defence industry that would have their jobs put in jeopardy through an arms export ban. Worth it is it?

I seem to remember the same hyperbole rhetoric being spouted in the days leading up to and immediately following the June referendum result and look what happened there. Nothing! Also, care to share why your condescending opinion carries more weight than one put forward by one of us poor economic illiterates? Just curious.

The human cost and the dire consequences of the UK being the leading arms supplier to middle east tyrants is not a price worth paying when the blowback from our actions has fuelled the biggest refugee crisis in history, led directly to the deaths of untold numbers of innocent civilians, many of them children, further destabilised an already volatile region and led to terrorism on our streets.

If you consider the massive devaluation of the pound since the referendum, with all the adverse economic consequences that have resulted from it, a mere 'nothing' , before we have even left the EU, then wait until reality starts to bite after March 2019. Anyone who seriously imagines that the UK will be better off outside the EU in any way, shape or form when even the government's own forecasts indicate otherwise needs to forget all the fanciful rhetoric about taking back control etc and start to picture what the UK will look like. Whatever trade deal we strike with the EU (and it's a big assumption that there will be a deal) cannot possibly be as good as the terms we have at the moment. The unravelling of so many interlinked agreements and procedures with little time left to even think about the practicalities, never mind enact them, will only bring chaos in the short term. The eventual result will be a much poorer, inward looking, increasingly divided nation with few friends, at the economic mercy of a rapacious USA, gradually losing any influence or even relevance to mainland Europe and for the vast majority, a standard of living that will inevitably be on a long decline for the foreseeable future.

 

[Bielzibubz]

See blues exile's excellent post above.Meanwhile Friday's 100m quid "aid" deal with the Saudis has been rightly condemmed.https://www.theguardian.com/global-...ver-100m-aid-deal-between-uk-and-saudi-arabia

I saw his post, that's why I replied to it. Something that clearly escaped you, not surprisingly.

What do you expect from The Gaurdian? Not learned you're lesson yet I see.

55,000 minimum. A mere trifle when morals are concerned huh. Typical Leftie :winking:

 

[Bielzibubz]

The human cost and the dire consequences of the UK being the leading arms supplier to middle east tyrants is not a price worth paying when the blowback from our actions has fuelled the biggest refugee crisis in history, led directly to the deaths of untold numbers of innocent civilians, many of them children, further destabilised an already volatile region and led to terrorism on our streets.

If you consider the massive devaluation of the pound since the referendum, with all the adverse economic consequences that have resulted from it, a mere 'nothing' , before we have even left the EU, then wait until reality starts to bite after March 2019. Anyone who seriously imagines that the UK will be better off outside the EU in any way, shape or form when even the government's own forecasts indicate otherwise needs to forget all the fanciful rhetoric about taking back control etc and start to picture what the UK will look like. Whatever trade deal we strike with the EU (and it's a big assumption that there will be a deal) cannot possibly be as good as the terms we have at the moment. The unravelling of so many interlinked agreements and procedures with little time left to even think about the practicalities, never mind enact them, will only bring chaos in the short term. The eventual result will be a much poorer, inward looking, increasingly divided nation with few friends, at the economic mercy of a rapacious USA, gradually losing any influence or even relevance to mainland Europe and for the vast majority, a standard of living that will inevitably be on a long decline for the foreseeable future.

Very well written if not way OTT in my opinion. Care to answer my question rather than give your opinion again? Do you have specific knowledge that marks someone out that should know far more than anyone else on here?

It's like every other well written opinion on here. It means nothing if not backed up by hard facts. That's where TUIB and others fall down, myself included because all my ramblings on here are just opinions on what I believe. I have no academic, business or political background to back them up. I know one or two on here have and I respect their views and take them on board and whilst you're sentiments towards the the UK arms trade and it's wider implications are all well and good, back in the real world it has to be recognised and accepted that it's been going on for decades and a no amount of moral indignation and outrage will stop it.

 

[blues exile]

Very well written if not way OTT in my opinion. Care to answer my question rather than give your opinion again? Do you have specific knowledge that marks someone out that should know far more than anyone else on here?

It's like every other well written opinion on here. It means nothing if not backed up by hard facts. That's where TUIB and others fall down, myself included because all my ramblings on here are just opinions on what I believe. I have no academic, business or political background to back them up. I know one or two on here have and I respect their views and take them on board and whilst you're sentiments towards the the UK arms trade and it's wider implications are all well and good, back in the real world it has to be recognised and accepted that it's been going on for decades and a no amount of moral indignation and outrage will stop it.

Your question as I recall was would it be worth it in terms of jobs lost, if we were to cease the arms trade. By 'worth it' I assume you are talking monetary value rather than the ethical dimension, so sticking strictly to your own terms of reference the first thing to do is look at the actual figures. As the MOD no longer supply them the number of jobs is an estimate and the figure of 300,000 has been the subject of scepticism. The actual numbers of those involved in arms manufacturing is relatively small, nothing like the 55000 quoted. It is a council of despair to just accept that because we have been involved in the arms trade since time immemorial that we can't change things. Of course we can, and those engineers involved can easily be retrained to bring their skills more useful pursuits, maybe developing renewable energy projects. We need to develop the considerable resources we have towards more productive industries that benefit society, rather than those which do so much damage.

 

[callan]

Very well written if not way OTT in my opinion. Care to answer my question rather than give your opinion again? Do you have specific knowledge that marks someone out that should know far more than anyone else on here?

It's like every other well written opinion on here. It means nothing if not backed up by hard facts. That's where TUIB and others fall down, myself included because all my ramblings on here are just opinions on what I believe. I have no academic, business or political background to back them up. I know one or two on here have and I respect their views and take them on board and whilst you're sentiments towards the the UK arms trade and it's wider implications are all well and good, back in the real world it has to be recognised and accepted that it's been going on for decades and a no amount of moral indignation and outrage will stop it.

Unfortunately blues exiles posts appear to be speculation of the very worst.

He wants to listen to economic experts, yet ignore the very same ones who have been telling us that the pound has been over valued for years.

 

[blues exile]

Unfortunately blues exiles posts appear to be speculation of the very worst.

He wants to listen to economic experts, yet ignore the very same ones who have been telling us that the pound has been over valued for years.

One man's forecasts are another man's speculation obviously but if you call serious economic forecasts 'speculation of the worst kind' whatever that means that's up to you. Whether the pound has been overvalued previously is of no relevance to the present situation, but devaluation has proved costly to the economy already and will continue to do its damage, and public awareness of this is only slowly sinking in.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I saw his post, that's why I replied to it. Something that clearly escaped you, not surprisingly.

What do you expect from The Gaurdian? Not learned you're lesson yet I see.

55,000 minimum. A mere trifle when morals are concerned huh. Typical Leftie :winking:

You don't seem to have taken account of the figures he mentions though.

I first came across the concept of The Multiplier Effect when I was studying A level Economics at WHS (some 50 years ago now) thank you.

 

[Bielzibubz]

You don't seem to have taken account of the figures he mentions though.

I first came across the concept of The Multiplier Effect when I was studying A level Economics at WHS (some 50 years ago now) thank you.

:stunned::stunned: Damn, it's been weeks since you made reference to yourself in a post. Clock starts again :winking:

You're clearly NOT one of the economic illiterates BE mentions are you :thumbsup:

Percentage of UK arms trade or percentage of UK workforce, the figure I quoted remains the same and so does my point.

Anyway, it's irrelevant really because no matter who's in power, JC, TM, BJ or even Uncle Tom Cobbly for that matter, none of them will ever do what is morally right and ban the sale of UK arms to other nation states with questionable human rights records or dodgy involvement in other nations conflicts. We, and in 'we' I mean the United Kingdom politically, socially and economically rely on the trade in arms far to much and God forbid JC ever makes it to Downing Street he'll face the same realities every other PM has faced.