Lisbon treaty

[loz]

Was it? I distinctly remember his smug butt ugly face when he said "I will serve a full third term". Those who voted for a Labour government for a third term deserve what they get though, it's just a shame about the rest of us :madman:

you're not wrong, you know...

However by the time of the 2005 election, it was notable that Blair and Brown were campaigning together a lot more, and most commentators at the time read this is a 'vote Blair, get Brown' ticket (as Blair knew by then he was unlikely to have the popularity in his own party to sustain a full third term). Nonetheless, good spot for calling me out on that one.

Back on-topic, whilst being generally pro-Europe I do agree with the positions being expressed by most of the more anti- people on this thread about democracy. By far the EU's biggest problem is it's failure to develop clear channels of democratic accountability to European citizens, and the Commission in particular often gives the impression that it doesn't give a crap about the issue.

 

[Rayleigh Weir]

Well I think it's disgusting that they should get a treaty. They chose a life of short hair and comfortable shoes. What's next? Letting them marry and adopt children?

 

[dashman]

I worry that by main streaming decisions for 'quickness' we lose any vote/veto/input. It is taking power away from the decision makers WE elected.

Good for the Irish & poor show Labour & the Lim Dems in the House of Lords.

Dash

 

[Firestorm]

Wouldn't bother me. We have an UNELECTED Prime Minister!

I think he was elected just like any MP's

We don't elect a prime minister, we elect an MP, or maybe even a party.

We have never had a vote to see who will be prime minister

 

[Boreham Shrimper]

I think he was elected just like any MP's

We don't elect a prime minister, we elect an MP, or maybe even a party.

We have never had a vote to see who will be prime minister

No we don't but I think you've hit on a very important point. Most people when they vote are influenced by who the party leaders are, even if they technically are not directly elected. The fact was that people were told before the 2005 election that Blair would serve a full third term and voted Labour on that understanding, because as we have seen over the last year, Brown is an altogether less palatable figure for the public than Blair ever was, even at the height of his arrogance. In the same manner, the promise that there would be a referendum on the EU Constitution was dropped and Brown used his majority in the Commons (won on the back of the lie that Blair would still be around), combined with the shameful and cowardly behaviour of the Lib Dems to get the Bill through the Commons, denying the British people their promised referendum.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

I think he was elected just like any MP's

We don't elect a prime minister, we elect an MP, or maybe even a party.

We have never had a vote to see who will be prime minister

The trouble is Gordon Brown has a limited democratic mandate because he was elected as a MP for a Scottish constituency. How legitimate is his mandate over English matters when, if that matter was Scottish, it would be reserved for the Scottish Parliament?

As for voting for a party, is voting for Scottish Labour the same as voting for Labour in England or Wales? Labour has its own separate leader in Scotland in Wendy Alexander and the Labour party in Scotland isn't always on the same page as the Labour Party in Westminster. It could also be pointed out that no-one even voted for Brown as Labour leader - he won the election by default, without ever having to state his case and stand up to the scrutiny of facing an opponent.

As far as I can see, Gordon Brown's only democratic legitimacy to govern over English matters is purely passive, in that no-one has yet submitted a motion of no confidence in the government. I consider this to be a far from satisfactory state of affairs.

Personally, I see what Enoch Powell dubbed the West Lothian question, as more troubling than the prospect of transferring decisions to be taken on a community-wide basis to the European Parliament.

Unfortunately we will never see a satisfactory resolution of the West Lothian question for so long as Labour are in power, because Labour's majority is dependent on Scottish and Welsh seats. The best chance of reforming will therefore be under the Tories, but I haven't been overly enamoured with their constitutional reform plans to date.