what is it ?

[canada shrimper]

As i sat eating my lunch today,reading the sports section from the Toronto Star,I noticed that a lot of the teams we used to play are either in the Premier$hite or high up in the 1st division.I remember going to Middlesborough and getting a win,they are now 5th in the top division.There at least 5 other teams we used to meet regularly in the league.Then it just gets worse Wigan,effin,Wigan top of the 1st and Reading up there as well.
What is it that these clubs have that have made them progress and for us to stay in the lowest league?How can they arrive in the higher echelons of the football league and survive?

 

[Guest]

easy, Money & Luck.

Bruce Shrimpsteen

Born to shrimp

 

[perth shrimper]

Who knows Canada.

Luck and money have been mentioned and i guess they're extremely pertinent yet there are so many factors its difficult to work out.

Fanbase, chairman ambition, training schedules, players attitudes, fans response, environment, local culture, club history, sponsors, club politics etc all come together with fate to decide who makes it or not.

 

[Guest]

Think the true answer is that most of the afore mentioned clubs are now punching there weight - Where as we over achieved for a good few season.

I would say that Southend achieved a lot in the early 90s but were well above our true level. However sadly a lack of investment and inablity to attract top players took its toll.

Short of Mike Marsh cant really think of a truely class player that we signed during that period as class player rather than say Stan, Otto etc that we turned into a classy player. Maybe Keith Jones as well but thats it.

DtS

 

[steveh1510]

Money money money money money.

 

[HUMBLEPIE]

Reading and Wigan have millionaire chairman who have pumped millions into their clubs, had new grounds built but should they walk away like Griggs at Rushden or die like Walker at Blackburn I'd hate to think where that would leave those clubs....

 

[fbm]

Personally, as much as I enjoyed the Div 1 days, I am not certain that the afterpain was worth it.

We had several seasons up there and for a small portion of that (once under Webb in our first year and once under Fry) we made an impact on the division and were right "up there".

But for the rest of the time we battled and ever since relegation we have had continuous seasons of dross, which I feel is partly the legacy that DIV 1 football has left us.

Only now are we starting to look like we could climb the ladder again.  But do we want to go that far up it?  Personally, no.  I want to get out of this division and consolidate nicely so that we can be a decent Div 2 team, which is where we should be really.  I don't believe that we really deserve to mix it for any length of time near the bottom of the football league.  If you look at our club in terms of facilities, fanbase, attendances etc, then we would probably rank about 60th, which puts us about midtable in Div 2.

Anyway, would we want to start paying £25 per ticket to see us in the Championship?

I'd rather pay less, watch a lower standard, and be safe in the knowledge that we have a solid club, as opposed to pay more to see generally better quality opposition who will more than likely beat us, and we will have to tolerate another load of overpaid underachievers again.  Lets face it - with the exception of the few signings who have made an immediate and enormous impact - Collymore, Eastwood, Otto - there isn't much prospect of any decent player wanting to ply his trade down here unless it's for money.  And that's when we start again down the road to ruin.

Now, with a brand new stadium and huge financial backing, that could change.  But, as has already been said, what guarantee have we that the backing will stay in place?

 

[sufcintheprem]

What's the point in playing in a league if you don't want to be promoted?

 

[HUMBLEPIE]

Quote[/b] (fbm @ Dec. 07 2004,09:50)]Personally, as much as I enjoyed the Div 1 days, I am not certain that the afterpain was worth it.

I couldn't disagree more I wouldn't have missed 6 years in Div 1 playing the likes of West Ham, ManCity and Wolves in that time instead of once in a blue moon in the cup. Lets hope Ron doesn't share your view of consolidating in League one, Div 2 or Div 3 as they are known as that idea normally leads to relegation onward and upward has to be the order of the day....

 

[Rusty Lee]

I'd give my left nut to back in the 1st division/championship, all it takes is one more relegation and this club would struggle to survive, which is almost exactly whats its doing now.

Theres no safe places to be for a club like SUFC but saying

"Personally, as much as I enjoyed the Div 1 days, I am not certain that the afterpain was worth it."

Is one of the most negative & defeatist posts I've ever read on this site? Bringing in managers who didnt have a fcking clue and not giving those who did the right amount of time, may of lead to our demise but playing at a higher level, personally I dont think so

 

[Guest]

As far as I am aware none of the teams you mentioned have employed Alvin Martin as manager. It still does my head in to think of the players we had in that squad that came bottom.

 

[fbm]

sufcintheprem and HUMBLEPIE

Listen Guys, I don't know how old you are, but I too once felt the same as you. However, whether it's age (I'm 43) or just the sheer length of time supporting the Blues (since I was 8) I don't know... perhaps the cynical and realistic hats get put on more often than not.

We are not, have never been and likely never will be a BIG club. And whilst I agree it was fantastic watching Man City, Derby, Wolves, West Ham in the league (and sometimes beating them, which really ****ed them off) those days are temporary and followed by seasons of agony.

Now, as I say, this applies to the club AS WE ARE AT THE MOMENT and with a new stadium, well, who knows?

But these are just personal views... of course I want us to get promoted! I WANT us to win the Premier$hite! But it ain't gonna happen, and the measures that may have to be taken to try and get there I feel, under the current set up, would be bad in the long term.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Can't say I agree with fbm either. How can:

*Bury away, April 91
*Newcastle home, Jan 92
*West Ham home, Apr 93
*Brum home, Dec 93
*Bolton home, Sep 96

...not have been worth it? How can it not have been worth it to see the likes of Collymore, Marsh, Byrne, Otto and many others strut their stuff at the Hall?

The "after-pain" only came about because of the Chipmunk's near-criminal incompetence, and the fact that an ailing Uncle Vic was (as we now know) too close to meeting his maker to have the energy to do anything about it.

After all, look at Grimsby. They went up when we did, came down when we did... and then in 97-98, whilst we were plunging through the trap door to the bottom flight, went straight back up again. We could have done that, had we not had the sh*ttest manager in living memory at the helm - who, in turn, had followed on from the second sh*ttest (overlooking Dick Bate for a moment).

Although, in a strange way, I can sort of see where you're coming from... I don't agree with it at all. I'd love to be back up there again - and seeing if, with good players and good management, we could mix it up in that league again.

Besides, if you haven't experienced the lows, then you can't fully appreciate the highs...

Matt

 

[fbm]

To qualify further and before a barrage of abuse follows...

I am not being negative or defeatist, just realistic.

If the correct structure is in place and the finances of the club are sound, then yes I want SUFC to get as high up the football ladder as possible. But until that day arrives, then I'd rather sit nicely where we should be (which is in a higher division than we are now!) safe in the knowledge that we aren't breaking the bank or charging inflated admission prices so that we continue to have a club to follow. That I guess is the point I am trying to make.

We can start by stuffing Orient tonight.

BLUE ARMY!

 

[sufcintheprem]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ Dec. 07 2004,10:16)]Can't say I agree with fbm either. How can:

*Bury away, April 91
*Newcastle home, Jan 92
*West Ham home, Apr 93
*Brum home, Dec 93
*Bolton home, Sep 96

...not have been worth it?

I'd like to add tonking 4 past Hislop and Reading to that list if I might. Happy, happy days.

I think you missed the point of my post though, fbm. I'm not saying we should break the bank to try and get to the Premier$hite. That would be absurd when we don't have the supporter base to justify this approach.

My point is more, why bother being in the football league if you don't one day aspire to being in the Premier$hite?

Sadly, I was never taken to Roots Hall every week by a seaso dad so I've only been going frequently since I could afford to. This coincided with the fantastic managerial tenure of Alvin Martin. While you may be longer suffering, at least you've seen top half finishes since you've been supporting.

To be able to watch second tier English football regularly is something I'd absolutely love to have at Roots Hall.

This does not mean I'm going to whinge and moan if we finish 12th because this will have probably been the most successful season since I started going if we do. If we have no ambition to reach past glories though, I've got a lot more suffering years as a fan ahead of me.

 

[fbm]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ Dec. 07 2004,10:16)]Can't say I agree with fbm either.  How can:

*Bury away, April 91
*Newcastle home, Jan 92
*West Ham home, Apr 93
*Brum home, Dec 93
*Bolton home, Sep 96

...not have been worth it?  How can it not have been worth it to see the likes of Collymore, Marsh, Byrne, Otto and many others strut their stuff at the Hall?

The "after-pain" only came about because of the Chipmunk's near-criminal incompetence, and the fact that an ailing Uncle Vic was (as we now know) too close to meeting his maker to have the energy to do anything about it.

After all, look at Grimsby.  They went up when we did, came down when we did... and then in 97-98, whilst we were plunging through the trap door to the bottom flight, went straight back up again.  We could have done that, had we not had the sh*ttest manager in living memory at the helm - who, in turn, had followed on from the second sh*ttest (overlooking Dick Bate for a moment).

Although, in a strange way, I can sort of see where you're coming from... I don't agree with it at all.  I'd love to be back up there again - and seeing if, with good players and good management, we could mix it up in that league again.

Besides, if you haven't experienced the lows, then you can't fully appreciate the highs...

Matt

Also, Matt, in fairness, a lot of the afterpain was caused by players still being on higher div wages, playing in a lower league, higher than average admission prices (which everyone moaned like mad about at the time) and a general holiday camp atmosphere among the players at the Hall, which actually was a follow on from Ronnie Whelan.

So Chipmunk isn't totally to blame... and of course the results you mention (plus Derby away just before Fry's departure, which IMHO topped the lot) were fantatstic, memorable days. Yes, you have to have the lows to appreciate the highs. That's why we follow this team, isn't it? Because that one result, that one unexpected result against a big team, makes it all worth it. But prior to last season it was mind-numbing, wasn't it? I think we had such a memorable and turbulent season last year that we have forgotten just how bad it was beforehand. The good days were a dim and distant memory until saviour Wignall arrived, and left us with so much optimism. The rest is history and I am delighted that we can even discuss getting back to Div 1, bearing in mine this time last season we would have been happy just to stay in the league!

Having said that, if we are lucky enough to get promoted and then within sniffing distance of promotion to the Championship, I'm certainly not going to say that we should not try and go up! I'll be up there with everyone, willing the team to get promoted, and then can immediately deny ever saying anything at all about this...

 

[HUMBLEPIE]

Quote[/b] (fbm @ Dec. 07 2004,10:22)]To qualify further and before a barrage of abuse follows...

I am not being negative or defeatist, just realistic.

If the correct structure is in place and the finances of the club are sound, then yes I want SUFC to get as high up the football ladder as possible.  But until that day arrives, then I'd rather sit nicely where we should be (which is in a higher division than we are now!) safe in the knowledge that we aren't breaking the bank or charging inflated admission prices so that we continue to have a club to follow.  That I guess is the point I am trying to make.

We can start by stuffing Orient tonight.

BLUE ARMY!

FBM no abuse from this quarter....as you have been going as long as I have you will remember the Anton Johnson era....if someone tapped you on the shoulder when we were getting stuffed 5-2 by Col U at home....don't worry in five years you'll be in the 2nd div and Col U Will be in the Conference I'm sure you wouldn't have said I wouldn't want that unless we can afford it....so sod getting the structure in place and finances right that will never happen promotions are what we need...and we want them now.

 

[fbm]

Quote[/b] ]My point is more, why bother being in the football league if you don't one day aspire to being in the Premier$hite?

Couldn't agree more.

Every player has a dream that his club can climb the football ladder and get to the top on pure playing ability, because for that period of time his team had a blend that enabled that to happen. Wimbledon are the stuff that dreams are made of, going from Southern league to FA Cup winners in about 15 years. And they are now where...?

It saddens me that these days in the money orientated game it is unlikely that somethging like that will ever happen again. We've already had that Shepherd guy from Newcastle stating openly that we smaller clubs can basically get lost. In order to compete these days you have to be able to buy a team. Because if you build one, then as soon as your decent young players hit 24 they bugger off to "bigger" teams for nothing and you are back to square one.

Crewe is a fantastic example of how a small club like ours should be run. They have had several seasons in the Championship with probably the best manager in the world at the helm, Dario Gradi. Forget Wenger, Ferguson et al... for this guy to do what he has done with no money, pure coaching ability and on a shoestring budget with crowds similar to ours he deserves a medal. If we can do it that way, then fantastic.

However, I fear they are somewhat unique and the model seems to be more akin to the Chelsea method of buying anybody money no object, or the Wigan and Rushden example of huge individual financial backing. That is definitely the wrong way for long term success and you only have to talk to Rushden fans to see what they think of it. Gates of 10,000 in the conference, 2000 now. No money, limited squad, suspect management, and top candidates for relegation, if not this season then next.

So, to summarise, if we can do it the right way, great. But it's a big if.

 

[Kent Shrimper]

Surely it is better to have loved and lost, than to never have loved at all. (Nice)

Point is being at Bury and winning promotion to the old 2nd Div (1st/Championship), was and is one of the greatest days of my life and i still to this day pop the video in and remanice. To have had the priviledge to be part of that day will stay with me for ever.

The following years have brought back alot of pain but thats what football is all about the expectation, the hope of promotion, the willing your team into the final of the FA Cup or for us LDV Trophy, the prospect of hurt with relegation.

But surely thats why we are all football fans but more importantly follow the mighty Shrimpers because the Highs are greater than the Arse and Mancs, the lows well we have enough of them to not take those highs for granted.

I understand what fbm is saying he wants the club to be stable and climb, but bugger all that, as long as the club is keeping to its budgets and we can still win promotion the budgets start to look after themselves and the club financially is looking a lot better than it has done for many years. Gone are the days where you spent more than you had coming in, i dont think we could get into the same predicement even if we wanted to.

 

[fbm]

Quote[/b] ]as you have been going as long as I have you will remember the Anton Johnson era....if someone tapped you on the shoulder when we were getting stuffed 5-2 by Col U at home....don't worry in five years you'll be in the 2nd div and Col U Will be in the Conference I'm sure you wouldn't have said I wouldn't want that unless we can afford it

Yeah, ok... good point, well made.

It's easy to say it when it ain't gonna happen isn't it? As I said, if we were there or thereabouts in league 1 I certainly wouldn't be advocating not trying too hard in case we go up.

Anton Johnson... where is he now? Nowhere near a football team I hope...